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jeff lary

2000 3-14-8 No Start Issue

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jeff lary
Posted (edited)

Hello everyone I have been a member for quiet a while but seldom post problems I guess that is a testament to the tractors we all love. I have a issue where I cannot start my 3/14 today while mowing it shut off .At first I thought that maybe I had tried to go into reverse without turning the safety key under the seat I do sometimes forget that. So when it restarted I went on mowing, I Was thinking that was probably what happened. Then 10 minutes later it stalled again .The engine cranks fine,.. I thought maybe the oil level may be a tad low ( I could not easily see the oil on the dip stick) thus the oil sentry may have caused the stall so I added about a cup of oil but still no start.

I hauled it back to my shop where I can get my tools and there,.. I got it in my head that the engine was turning over quite easily = low compression maybe?, just paranoid I guess, thinking maybe a broken valve spring. So I tested the compression I have 158# the plug was tan and looked good bty.

Next I tried the plug to check for fire ,..no fire

I tried a different plug still no fire.

I bi-passed the seat switch and still no fire.

I then bi-passed the neutral position switch and still no fire.

I am at an end to my diagnostic skills ha ha. I am wondering if maybe it is a bad coil?

 

I did change the solenoid this spring and discovered a broken wire about 4 inches away from the connection point to the solenoid. So there was not enough extra wire to just move the ring end of the wire back to the break and re-attach it. So I spliced in about 6" of wire with an soldiered connection at the splice then on to the solenoid and have been mowing with it all summer with no issues so I don't think that wire is the problem. If you have any thoughts i would welcome them. This afternoon we are taking the family tubing so i will be gone from 12:30 or so till 5 or 6 pm likely so if i dont answer that is why. Thank you for your time and any opinions, Jeff

Edited by jeff lary

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gwest_ca

Here is the detailed wiring diagrams. The ignition system has it's own diagrams.

Let us know what you find.

 

Garry

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jeff lary

Well I have an update already I think. After I sat here a while I thought that maybe I should re-check that oil level. It had been about 30 minutes and when I checked the oil it was still about 1/2" below the fill line. So I figured "yup low on oil" and I added maybe another cup. That put it just slightly above the fill line, I turned the key and it fired right up. Great ! I thought so I drove it 200 yards to let my son know what was up as he helped me tow it to the shop.  I let it run while I told him that it turned out to be low oil after all.

 He looked at me kinda funny and said yea I bet that aint the issue, he said and he's right I think. That it started up initially fine then quit 2 times and I added some oil and it did not restart. So you're telling me it ran through 2 cups of oil in 1/2 hours mowing time?? When he said it out loud I realized that maybe it is not an oil question after all. That maybe the coil was cold for the initial start up then after it quit and sat for 30 minutes or so the coil cooled off enough to re-start. So with that in my mind I drove it back home and before I could get it back under cover it quit again. I got it restarted and put it away. Does this sound like a hot no start coil issue to you guys.? Based on what I have heard it does to me.

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Ed Kennell

Run a small junper directly from the + battery post to the + coil post.   Do not leave it on unless the tractor is running.   If it runs, there is a break in the ignition circuit.   Could be a broken wire, ignition switch or one of the safeyy switches that you have jumped.

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jeff lary
Posted (edited)

I will try that the next time it quits but this could get maddening quick I think, would that rule out a coil issue. I cannot remember why but i had the thought that i had a bad ing. key switch on one of my tractors but I think it was on my 3/12/8 not this one.

Edited by jeff lary

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Ed Kennell
2 minutes ago, jeff lary said:

would that rule out a coil issue

If it runs fine with the 12v jumped directly to the coil, the coil is OK.    Then you must check each leg and component of the ignition circuit to find the break that is interrupting the 12v to the coil.

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gwest_ca

The oil pressure switch on this model controls the oil light and the hour meter only.

 

The magneto ignition is controlled by a kill relay which must be energized to remove the ground from the ignition which shuts the ignition off.

 

Garry

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lynnmor

There is no low oil switch to kill the engine.  When the oil gets low enough the engine will seize and possibly restart after it cools but of course the engine is ruined at that point.  You may have a heat sensitive coil or any number of bad connections, relays or connections, follow the diagram for your spark circuit.

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jeff lary

Ok now here is the issue, I can do a lot of stuff but understanding electrical circuits is definitely not one of the things. I feel awful even typing this but it is the truth I work on boat trailer lights and that is about the height of my skills. But when the time comes i can try. The fellow who sent me the diagram may as well have sent it to a monkey i fear i have not looked at it yet as we are leaving here soon. But pretty sure the symbols and what each thing does will be above my pay grade ha ha.

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jeff lary

lynnmore i believe you are wrong in this case this is an "Oil Sentry" Kohler engine .

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gwest_ca

If you have a test light or a multimeter you can do this.

Just follow the diagram.

The NMIR (No mow in reverse) module provides a ground for the tan kill relay ground and the yellow wire that powers the kill relay must have battery power for the ignition to work.

There may be more than one identical relay. The wire colors to the relay are the only way to identify what relay is what.

 

Garry

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jeff lary

Ok so I am back and thank you for the responses. I guess you would have to be here to believe this but now I have a boat motor issue.. never rains for me just hurricanes I guess. I just wanted to take my son his wife my wife and their 3 children tubing  I guess that's what I get.

 The engine is a 2011 150hp Yamaha 4-stroke and a very nice one at that at least till today. I think I pumped in some watery fuel at the gas station as It ran perfect last Friday added fuel today and shudder shake no more than 1/8 to maybe 3/8 throttle and then it falls on it's face. Under cowling in an engineering masterpiece but scary as ole heck. I am thinking fuel filter but never done that so have to look into it I guess I figure it is likely fuel related I think I have heard of a fuel water separator so got to try to find that as well I suppose....

 

Back to the Wheel horse I will have to get it into the driveway and let it run till It quits and I am sure it will then go from there. Back in post #4 Ed said to run a jumper wire from the positive post on the battery to the positive post on the coil, I assume your coil is in a different place than mine?  like out in the open maybe? It looks like mine is under the left side engine shroud? or maybe yours is too?

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Ed Kennell
23 minutes ago, jeff lary said:

I assume your coil is in a different place

Sorry, yes yours is  probably solid state not coil and points.    

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jeff lary

Yes I think this is a 2000 year machine.

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Tuneup

So, it's not a standard coil - it's an under shroud magneto machine. Should be able to locate the white kill wire that comes from under the shroud. When grounded, it kills the engine. If unattached, the engine should run forever. If it dies - magneto. Page 3 of the guide. Anyway, sight unseen, there's my 2 cents :-)

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jeff lary

Thanks tuneup I will have to check for that wire.

So small up-date, yesterday after I went to my sons about 100 yards away with it running fine on my way back it stalled again. I got it restarted and parked it. Today I started it right up easily and brought it up in my shop where I planned to let it run till it quit ( maybe 10 minutes) then check for spark. I still thought the coil failing when hot may be the issue. So I started it and it ran till i got sick of listening to it maybe 40 minutes. Don't know what to make of it? so I thought that maybe moving it around would jiggle something lose so I just drove it around for 10 minutes then started mowing with it. I mowed for about 1.5 hours it was running fine. Then it happened again it just shut off. boom... done right there. So I tried to restart and yup 3seconds later it was running fine again. Mowed about 4-5 min then it quit again but started right back up mowed a few minutes more stalled again but restarted no problem? I do not think a bad coil would do that. If the coil got hot and failed i would think it would have to cool 1/2 hr or so before restarting... I did change the fuel filter before mowing today i had one and it needed one so I changed it.

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pfrederi
Posted (edited)

Have you put a plug tester on it when it balks?  any spark at all. 

Edited by pfrederi

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jeff lary
Posted (edited)

I just went out 5 min ago yes i put the plug tester on and nothing so to make sure i pulled the plug and with it connected to the ht lead still nothing. I was surprised because I figured it would start right up when I went out but nothing?

 

Strange  really,...stalls 4-5 times 20 minutes ago re-starts no problem then I park it come in and go right back out and nothing. I wish I was good at electrical stuff and I do appreciate everyone trying but when I look at the diagrams it may as well be Arabic. I was sure it was the coil but when it kept restarting I ruled that out but maybe coils act like that sometimes intermittent operation? Sorry if I seem to be fixated on the coil but without electrical skill that is what I am left with. This frigging thing has so many safety switches  it may be one of them who knows.

Edited by jeff lary

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jeff lary

For the heck of saying so I just went out after it setting for a couple hours starts and runs like a champ. For a while at least.....

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Handy Don
Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, jeff lary said:

For the heck of saying so I just went out after it setting for a couple hours starts and runs like a champ. For a while at least.....

I agree you’ve practically eliminated a bad coil. Condenser or an intermittent short or break or high-resistance connection are next on the ”likely” list.

Me? I’d start with PTO and seat switches since they can stop a running engine easiest. Clean and tight connections? Fully engaged lever and seat actions?

 

Edited by Handy Don

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jeff lary

yes next I will look at the switches.

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jeff lary

Maybe a discovery??

Under my seat on the right is the KEY actuated no now in reverse switch . There are 2 spade connectors that stick out of that switch that a 2 prong female receptacle plug slides onto. One of the fixed prongs is all afloat all lose and wiggles. I wonder if this may be the issue? I am in the shop now w/ the tractor and laptop. I will remove it to see if i can tighten it somehow or may have to just buy new.

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jeff lary

What I have for a multi meter is a Harbor freight CEN-TECH if you know what you are doing i am sure this is junk but for me who is just learning electric testing ( boy i use that term tounge in cheek) I figure this one is fine. 

To test the switch for continuity i put the black lead in the common connection and the red in V-omega symbol-mA . Then i cross the leads and after a moment it gets down to 001 when i touch the leads to each of the two male spade tips in the switch barrel the reading give me a 1 on the far left of the screen. According to the video i just watched on youtube that 1 means infinity or open circuit or not working correctly?? does this sound right?

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jeff lary

Checked / took each switch plug off each one cleaned every connector other than the under seat reverse switch lose terminal i cannot find any issue. The tractor has been running now for 20 minutes never missing a beat. However the volt meter dash gage is burryied beyond 16 volts

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Handy Don

the Ω (ohms or resistance) display when testing an open circuit should show "infinity"--some meters show it as a large resistance some keep flickering among different values so if by your instructions a 1 at far left is infinity, then good!

 

When testing a closed circuit, i.e. one where electricity should be flowing, the resistance should be extremely small or zero. So .001 is good.

 

I don't know your specific tractor so I don't know about the "don't mow in reverse" specifically. What does the manual say it does?

 

The dash meter showing 16+ volts is not good at all. Can you use your HF meter in the DC Volts setting (with the red lead to positive and black lead to negative) to test the voltage across the two battery terminals? If your meter agrees with the dash meter, then likely your voltage regulator is toast. If the HF meter is more like 14 volts, then the dash meter is suspect.

 

 

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