855 Steering issues

[adsm08 3,337]

So the steering slop on my 855 has finally gotten bad enough that I need to do something with it. I've figured out everywhere I have slack on the system, and most of it is between the fan gear and the horizontal shaft. The tie rods account for a bit more, and will be dealt with in due course, but they are minor compared to the fan gear to shaft connection.

 

Looking at the tractor and the parts diagram it looks like all that holds those two pieces together is a roll pin. I'd like to slightly enlarge the hole and put a bolt in it instead. With the deck off and the steering turned to the right spot I can access it to do the work, but I think it would make things easier to take it out and work on the bench.

 

So, um, how does it come out? I know there is supposed to be a cotter pin at the end of the shaft, but I haven't found it yet, and I'm not convinced I'll get all the forward movement I need to clear the frame.

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,512]

36 and 37 are shims held to the end of the shaft by 38 cotter pin.

Adding more shims will pull the fan gear back to the pinion gear. You do not want 0 backlash but a bit of clearance through the full travel of the fan gear.

Casting 28 is easily broken so be careful.

[adsm08 3,337]

1 hour ago, gwest_ca said:

36 and 37 are shims held to the end of the shaft by 38 cotter pin.

Adding more shims will pull the fan gear back to the pinion gear. You do not want 0 backlash but a bit of clearance through the full travel of the fan gear.

Casting 28 is easily broken so be careful.

Pinion to fan gear backlash is correct. Steering turns easy and the fan gear starts to move right away. However I can turn the steering wheel over 1/4 turn before the wheels start to turn, and most of that slop is observable as being between parts 35 and 39.

 

I can't see it directly yet but I am fairly certain that the hole in 35 that pin 40 goes through is egged out.

 

The parts callout lists 40 as being a 5/16 diameter roll-pin. My plan was to remove it, upsize the hole to 3/8 if it isn't already, and install a grade 3 bolt in place of the pin. Grade 3 should be softer than the shaft, so any future wear should mostly be on the softer metal of the bolt, which would be easier to replace than the pin. A bolt I can unscrew easily, this roll pin will have to wait until Tuesday when I can get back into the shop to get my slide hammer, unless I can get the shaft out.

Edited July 4, 2021 by adsm08

[squonk 43,939]

Loosen  upper bushing behind gas tank and  lift upper steering shaft out of # 28. Remove cotter pin and shims. Take out bolts holding #28 to frame. disconnect tie rods at front of shaft. Pull shaft rearward until front of shaft clears front frame bearing. Shaft is in your hand ready for the bench.

[adsm08 3,337]

6 hours ago, squonk said:

Loosen  upper bushing behind gas tank and  lift upper steering shaft out of # 28. Remove cotter pin and shims. Take out bolts holding #28 to frame. disconnect tie rods at front of shaft. Pull shaft rearward until front of shaft clears front frame bearing. Shaft is in your hand ready for the bench.

 

 

That's the info I'm looking for.

 

@squonk to the rescue again. Thanks.

[adsm08 3,337]

Ok, I got it out, and as I thought the hole in the horizontal shaft is egged out. I'll get some pictures tomorrow after I clean everything up.

 

@squonk got me to Souix Falls, but not quite to Singer Salvage. I ended up removing the fan gear from the shaft while it was still in the tractor because I was stuck on the rocker shaft. The battery tray had to come out because the flag would not clear the cross rod for the pedals, which of course is welded in place.  Then I had the space to tilt the rear of the shaft up and drop it out going forward and down. I also had to remove one side of the front deck mount to get the swing gate out of the way, again for flag clearance. Those may not have been needed if I had done this in December during one of the six times I had the engine out.

 

The parts explosion is also somewhat deceiving. There is a 5/16 roll pin that holds the fan gear and shaft together. What it doesn't show is the other smaller roll in inside that roll pin. I could see the end was much smaller than 5/16 but I thought it was some sort of stepped unit that I'd never seen before,  until I got it out and it came out in two pieces.

 

My plan is still to bring the hole up to the next size, and then use a low-grade bolt hoping that the soft metal of a grade 2 bolt will take 90% or more of future wear, and not the shaft, and that the clamping force of a nut and bolt, rather than just a roll pin knocking back and forth, prevents most of the potential wear to either component.

Edited July 7, 2021 by adsm08

[adsm08 3,337]

Picture time!

 

As predicted, the hole in the shaft was egged out, and not just a little.

 

 

 

 

This is a 15/16 drillbit

 

The ultimate fix was to drill all three holes, the one in the shaft and both sides of the fan gear, to 21/64 and tapped for a 3/8X16 thread. Then ran a short bolt in from each side, spaced out with washers since each bolt is a bit more than half the length, and secured with red (because what other color will you use on a WH?) thread locker to guard against vibrations. Not a lick of play now and the steering is much tighter. Gonna order some tie rod from Lowell when he gets back, and that out to about do her.

 

Edited July 8, 2021 by adsm08

[adsm08 3,337]

I got to actually test it out over the weekend.

 

The steering response is much improved, but there room for improvement yet.

[Jeff-C175 7,206]

11 minutes ago, adsm08 said:

room for improvement yet

 

Does the 855 use the flanged bearing at the front of the steering shaft?  or something else?

 

When I replaced that flanged bearing on my machine, the 'free play' in the wheel went down by about half.  (it fell apart when I took it out)

 

Replaced the tie rods and the further improvement was "good enough for gummint use"

 

Edited July 13, 2021 by Jeff-C175

[adsm08 3,337]

9 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

 

Does the 855 use the flanged bearing at the front of the steering shaft?  or something else?

 

When I replaced that flanged bearing on my machine, the 'free play' in the wheel went down by about half.  (it fell apart when I took it out)

 

Replaced the tie rods and the further improvement was "good enough for gummint use"

 

 

By all appearances it does not. Mine has nothing there and no provisions to mount any sort of bearing, along with nothing being shown on the part listing. I do agree that a bearing of some sort up there would help as most of my free play at this point is in the shaft walking back and forth at the forward end.

 

The most likely piece for it to be able to accept would be some sort of bushing that fits through the front and is retained by a snap ring or e-clip, but to my knowledge no such piece was used in production.

[Gregor 4,847]

I am at a loss as to figure out just what does hold the front end of the steering shaft. Just the tie rods? That doesn't make sense.

 

What would be wrong with welding the fan gear to the shaft? You would still be able to remove the shaft if you wanted, unless I am missing something.

[adsm08 3,337]

15 minutes ago, Gregor said:

I am at a loss as to figure out just what does hold the front end of the steering shaft. Just the tie rods? That doesn't make sense.

 

What would be wrong with welding the fan gear to the shaft? You would still be able to remove the shaft if you wanted, unless I am missing something.

 

Nothing. The shaft goes through a hole at the front of the tractor, though I can't picture the piece it is in at the moment. There are signs of wear around the end of the shaft where it has rubbed the body, but nothing structural.

 

I would not be able to remove the shaft if I welded it to the fan gear.  The fan gear does not fit between my frame rails unless turned sideways, and the rod that the pedals pivot on and the stirrups mount on interferes with being able to pull the shaft out the top, and is welded to the frame. This arrangement means the ability to remove the fan gear is vital to removing the steering shaft.

[Gregor 4,847]

9 minutes ago, adsm08 said:

 

Nothing. The shaft goes through a hole at the front of the tractor, though I can't picture the piece it is in at the moment. There are signs of wear around the end of the shaft where it has rubbed the body, but nothing structural.

 

I would not be able to remove the shaft if I welded it to the fan gear.  The fan gear does not fit between my frame rails unless turned sideways, and the rod that the pedals pivot on and the stirrups mount on interferes with being able to pull the shaft out the top, and is welded to the frame. This arrangement means the ability to remove the fan gear is vital to removing the steering shaft.

Completely different than anything I have seen on any of my tractors. They all have the flanged bearing at the front.

[Gregor 4,847]

Got curious. Crawled under my 175, and my 125 to look. Both have the fan gear welded to the shaft.

[adsm08 3,337]

21 hours ago, Gregor said:

Got curious. Crawled under my 175, and my 125 to look. Both have the fan gear welded to the shaft.

 

I'll have to look close at my 800, which I think is more similar to the two you mentioned. The 855's frame is narrow.

[oliver2-44 10,777]

So is there wear/slop in the horizontal hole in part#28 that is allowing the horizontal shaft to walk around out at the end.  i seem to recall some have drilled out part #28 and put a bushing in the vertical hole for the steering wheel shaft and a bushing in the horizontal hole as well.  Seems @WHX24 has bushed some of these!

[adsm08 3,337]

2 hours ago, oliver2-44 said:

So is there wear/slop in the horizontal hole in part#28 that is allowing the horizontal shaft to walk around out at the end.  i seem to recall some have drilled out part #28 and put a bushing in the vertical hole for the steering wheel shaft and a bushing in the horizontal hole as well.  Seems @WHX24 has bushed some of these!

 

No, I'm good and tight at 28, I had to lube it and still hammer the shaft out of 28. My walking play is at the front of the tractor, near part 19, where there is no support, and seems to never have been.

Edited July 15, 2021 by adsm08

[WHX?? 51,877]

I have drilled and bushed out a couple. I used a cut down bronze oil lite bushing and just used red loctite to hold it in.

Oddly many of the tractors I have restoed this point (the bottom of 28) and the front end were good. I have added a zerk to the bottom end but probaly not nessecsary. I have also done this if the socket on 28 is wallowed. Sloppy steering is a personal pet peeve. 

Although I see your line of thinking on the bolt not big on the idea of a bolt. I have ripped into too may tractors that this was done on and it never seemed to work and I deemed it as a farmer fix. I believe an accurate sized hole and a 3/8 roll pin is the proper fix. 

Edited July 15, 2021 by WHX24

[adsm08 3,337]

@WHX24 Never worked how?

 

I work on cars all day, bigger equipment, heavier parts, tighter tolerances and more performance and durability expected (Not that we generally expect vehicles to last 60 years). In automotive we pretty much don't use roll pins for anything anymore, something like this would be bolted together.