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vogli

Unable to shift.

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vogli
Posted (edited)

I have a 1973 Raider 12HP.

 

So, I recently replaced by drive belt. A test drive afterward was fine, and seemed to indicate that it worked much better than before (far less slippage).

 

On to the next maintenance item: Changing the transmission oil.

 

I put a bit of diesel fuel into the transmission and took it out to run around the yard a bit....and got myself into a jam. The drive belt seemed to be rubbing something, got really hot, and at the same time, I couldn't shift out of gear. I turned off the tractor, and eventually managed to get it out of gear, but can no longer get it into gear. The high/low shifter *seems* to work...but I can't get into 1/2/3/R.

 

In addition, it became really clear that the seals around the axles are completely shot.

 

So, there is a lot going wrong here...not necessarily all related.

 

I guess first thing...is there potentially simple solution to fixing my shifting issue, or will I likely need to remove the transmission and open it up?

 

I have occasionally had shifting issues before, such as, I might need to move the shifter into one gear, to align things enough to shift into my desired gear, eg. shifting into reverse, before I could get it into first or something, but never a complete inability to get into any gear.

 

Edited by vogli

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8ntruck

Do you have the drive belt guard installed?  There are belt guides inside of the belt guard that insure the belt releases from the Phillies when the clutch is depressed.  Without the guard, the belt will still want to turn with the clutch depressed.

 

On my '73 14-8, there is one tab that supports the upper portion of the belt about 1/2 way between the idler pulley and the engine pulley.  The belt needs to be above the tab,

 

There is another tab that extends forward out of the belt guard under the engine pulley.  This tab supports the belt to keep it free from the engine pulley when the clutch is depressed.  If this tab was bent down, it could produce the symptoms you are seeing.

 

Will the shifter go into gear when the engine is not running?

 

Good luck and have fun.

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vogli
Posted (edited)

No, I can't shift at all, whether or not the engine is running.

 

Yeah, the guard is installed, and the the belt was working fine previously. Clutch worked as expected - belt stopped when depressed, etc.

Edited by vogli
Actually answer the questions asked.

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gwest_ca

You may be in two gears at once. Remove the shifter and using a long screw driver slide the shift rails left or right to get them both centered in the hole. That is neutral.

Make sure the ball is still on the end of the shifter.

 

Garry

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8ntruck
Posted (edited)

 :text-yeahthat:  There should be some detents so you can feel the shifter rails 'snap' into position as you move them with a screw driver.  Could be that one of the detent ball/spring assemblies is not working correctly.  As you are trying to move the shift rails, you might need to wiggle the input shaft to get the gears to release and let the shift rail move.

Edited by 8ntruck

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stevasaurus

Your 1973 Raider 12 should have the #5073 transmission.  This is a 10 pinion Limited Slip differential.  You should also have a dip stick.  Do you still have oil in the transmission?  You can do a few things to determine if you need to drop and open the transmission.  Take off the belt and guard so you can turn (by hand) the input pulley.  Jack up the rear end.  As was said above, pull out the shifter and examine shifter.  Try moving the shift forks with a large screwdriver and position shift forks so trans is in neutral.  The fork toward the rear of the trans is your 2nd & 3rd gear...the fork toward the front is your 1st & reverse.  Try to move one of the forks and if it does go into gear, turn the input pulley counter-clockwise and listen and feel what the trans is doing.  Try all gears if able to shift.  Let us know what you find when doing these steps.  This may give us an idea of what is wrong.  :thumbs:  This thread will give you an idea of how this trans works and will help a lot if you have to open it up.  

 

The differences between your #5073 & the #5060 in the thread...you have a dip stick, your brake drum is mounted on your cluster gear shaft...instead of the mushroom gear.  That's all.

 

 

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vogli
Posted (edited)

I don't have much oil in the transmission. I checked it recently, and it was both low, brown, it smelled bad, and looked like it had water in it. The axles on both sides appeared to have oil on them. I decided to replace the oil, and took the suggestion of putting in some diesel fuel to clean it out before draining. That clearly has leaked out the side axle seals, so I assume I'll need to replace those. I think I read someplace that can be done without having to open the tranny. Is that correct?

 

I do have a dipstick to the back on my transmission. Would there be any marking on the transmission itself to indicate the model?

 

Thanks for the  debugging suggestions, I'll hopefully have some time this afternoon to give them a try.

Edited by vogli
clarify, expand.
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stevasaurus

No markings on the trans, but if original, it is a #5073.  Yes you can change out the seals without opening the trans.  Seals for the axles are SKF #11050.  

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vogli

OK, so I think I lied earlier. I don't think the hi/lo is working. It's always been a little hard for me to "feel" when I've shifted into low or high. I think I was mistaken earlier when I thought high/low worked OK.

 

So, I'm in neutral. The forks (front and back) appear to be aligned. The drive input pully spins freely, and I don't see any gear movement. I don't have a really long screwdriver :-(, but using the longest one I've got, I tried to shift the front fork left, or right, and the back fork left or right. Failure on both. How much leverage should this require?

 

I got the idea to move the brake drum, and that did move some gears internally, and freed up the high/low. I can definitely shift that now. I think next I'll try putting the shifter back in, and see if that works now.

 

The drive belt is torn up on the top, as can be seen by the pictures. I noticed that the pad on the bottom of the belt shield, where it rests against the transmission was wet and oily. I suspect this may mean that the seal around the drive input shaft  is also leaking.

 

 

00_shield_off_belt.jpg

01_oil_on_av_pad.jpg

02_shifter_removed_ick.jpg

03_view_in_tran_neutral.jpg

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vogli

I think there may be some accumulated metal shavings in here. That's not good....but is it necessarily a sign of something really bad that should be addressed Right Now (TM)? IOW, it seems this might be somewhat common result of wear for a transmission that is almost 50 years old. Maybe?

 

Sigh. I need to mow, and my wife is getting impatient :-(

IMG_20210703_175629995.jpg

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vogli
Posted (edited)

OK, so yes. Now I can shift between R/1/2/3. However, it doesn't go easily. Once in gear, when turning the drive input pulley, things seem to move smoothly, I don't feel any binding, any obvious skips (like I imagine I'd feel if teeth were missing). I *do* hear the gears, which I suppose means they don't mesh perfectly. I can also feel some play when moving the pulley - maybe a 1/4 inch of rotation before feeling resistance and hearing the gears. In my ignorance, perhaps, I would attribute these things to many years of wear.

 

That said, shifting is still hard. Many times it doesnt don't want to move to/from neutral, and from neutral into gear. I have to apply some preasure, and then it "snaps" into place. Or, into the opposite gear position (eg. From reverse over to first). Sometimes it just shifts easily from side to side. 2nd and 3rd do seem to be generally harder to shift to/from.  Advancing or reversing the pully/gears doesn't seem to effect my ability to shift in/out of gear.

 

Might this be the result of insufficient lubrication? (transmission oil is quite low)

Edited by vogli
more detail
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rjg854

Sounds like a good cleaning is in order.  By the looks of the shifter it's pretty rusty inside.  Most likely it should come apart and be cleaned.  BUT You could try draining whatever is in there and flushing the transmission out with some diesel fuel.  Drain it, fill it with diesel, run it around in all gears for awhile, drain it, and maybe do this as many times as it takes to run clear. If at all. Jack up the front of the tractor as high as you can to make sure you get it all out. There is a hump in the middle of the transmission to get over.

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squonk

The rest of your transmission is going to look like the shifter. I believe an overhaul/replacement is in order. :(

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stevasaurus

Those pictures do tell the story.  I would drop and open that trans.  You're just not going to be able to flush out all that rust and slug.  Cleaning out that trans will give you another 50 years.  If you just end up loosening that gunk, you may cause more damage.  Shifting your transmission should not be hard to do...I think you have a rust problem.  The gears may be OK and just need a wire wheel to clean those.  If you keep putting in diesel without changing the seals, I would just run it on blocks.  You don't want that diesel dripping all over your lawn.  :orcs-cheers:

   Maybe you could have your lawn mowed for a couple of weeks, while you fix the horse.??

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Tuneup

Yeah, rebuild in your near future. Also, placating the 'better half' is of primary importance so I expect there is a 520 somewhere nearby you can pick-up for a song that will mow while the old Raider is receiving needed attention. There is always a reason to get another. Wives can understand. At least mine, kinda, does. It's a guy thing.

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ebinmaine

Here's a link to the thread showing the replacement horse and transmission removal, for future cross reference material. 

 

 

 

 

On 7/5/2021 at 9:58 AM, Tuneup said:

There is always a reason to get another

Excellent information here. Always remember!!

:lol:

 

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ebinmaine
On 7/3/2021 at 12:28 PM, stevasaurus said:

Your 1973 Raider 12 should have the #5073 transmission.  This is a 10 pinion Limited Slip differential

I wasn't aware these were used after 1970. Very interesting. 

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