Maxwell-8 4,367 #26 Posted February 21, 2021 (edited) 33 minutes ago, gcole said: Do you happen to have a link for the Diesel engine you used? Do you think that it would fit under the hood of the 520? Making a new air box and exhaust is no issue. I’d definitely look into shipping it to Canada. Diesel would be really nice as on the farm I have a diesel tank to fill it haha. i think a 2cyl would be hard to fit, but 1cyl diesel will fit and they are reliable. basically nothing that could brake on those. Skipper, can you make a pic of your diesel WH? Edited February 21, 2021 by Maxwell-8 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bc.gold 3,406 #27 Posted February 21, 2021 21 hours ago, WVHillbilly520H said: A v-twin of the same HP rating will never have the torque of an opposed twin, so what about a KT-17/18 Kohler or even a Briggs opposed twin from a WH or Sears donor? I love my ONANS but haven't had any major mechanical issues of yet in 22 years so I can't give you any specifics, I don't know if 1 could change out the cam/ flyball/governor from a B series to P series ONAN to gain the metal spacer over the nylon, there is another thread going on about custom machined parts and making new/replacement spacers for these engines, now with a diesel its not necessarily the HP rating its about the torque to run the decks and such. The metal flyball spacer fits these model Onan engines. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WVHillbilly520H 10,376 #28 Posted February 21, 2021 1 minute ago, bcgold said: The metal flyball spacer fits these model Onan engines. Just because it fits doesn't mean its works as it should, what holds the metal 1 in place like the plastic one "without" modifying the gear or spacer? Its like putting Chevy 305ci SB heads on a 400ci SB sure they bolt on but they don't work unless severely modified. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bc.gold 3,406 #29 Posted February 21, 2021 21 hours ago, gcole said: I understand the torque to horsepower comparison. Im a ag tech by trade. I just personally can’t see the 10 horse diesel having compatible torque to the 20 onan. Has anyone ever installed an air cooled vtwin diesel? I’m not against putting another opposed twin In the tractor. Again it’s finding one. I haven’t been able to run across one as of yet that strikes me as a good swap candidate Check out the wrecking yards ( RV ) and local ads for an older Onan generator, the few differences are the gen head is the starter which allows the larger oil capacity pan no provision for a starter, the crankshaft has a tapered end that fit the generator armature and the governor uses 10 flyball weights but uses the same spider spacer. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bc.gold 3,406 #30 Posted February 21, 2021 2 minutes ago, WVHillbilly520H said: Just because it fits doesn't mean its works as it should, what holds the metal 1 in place like the plastic one "without" modifying the gear or spacer? Its like putting Chevy 305ci SB heads on a 400ci SB sure they bolt on but they don't work unless severely modified. These engines all use the same cam gear. the lower RPM generator engine uses a different camshaft profile and the lobe for the fuel pump is also there but not finished machined. Even the bearing journals measure the same, the older CCK series uses bearing inserts. Both the plastic and older metal spider's will interchange, if the metal spider only fit the older CCK series I would not waste my time setting up to reproduce these spiders for a very old and very scarce series engine. The plastic spiders are prone to failure, rather than go back to metal the Onan engineers redisighned the spider with a tab and a cam gear to accept the tab. To install the metal spider it's a shrink fit so it has to be slightly heated to install then they fit very snug and will not move. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WVHillbilly520H 10,376 #31 Posted February 21, 2021 8 minutes ago, bcgold said: These engines all use the same cam gear. the lower RPM generator engine uses a different camshaft profile and the lobe for the fuel pump is also there but not finished machined. Even the bearing journals measure the same, the older CCK series uses bearing inserts. Both the plastic and older metal spider's will interchange, if the metal spider only fit the older CCK series I would not waste my time setting up to reproduce these spiders for a very old and very scarce series engine. The plastic spiders are prone to failure, rather than go back to metal the Onan engineers redisighned the spider with a tab and a cam gear to accept the tab. To install the metal spider it's a shrink fit so it has to be slightly heated to install then they fit very snug and will not move. Now there's part of the answer I was looking for, but what about the weight, how and if this a concerning factor as well still needs to be addressed, also when fit does there need to be an alignment or does than matter can the balls be out of time? Or would drilling and using a dowel(s) be a better option? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bc.gold 3,406 #32 Posted February 21, 2021 (edited) 59 minutes ago, WVHillbilly520H said: Now there's part of the answer I was looking for, but what about the weight, how and if this a concerning factor as well still needs to be addressed, also when fit does there need to be an alignment or does than matter can the balls be out of time? Or would drilling and using a dowel(s) be a better option? Which is the most reported spider failure, metal or plastic. The Onan manufacture changed from metal to plastic as a cost saving with pr-engineerd failure long after warranty. To protect my interests have decided this is not an open source project. Edited February 21, 2021 by bcgold Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WVHillbilly520H 10,376 #33 Posted February 21, 2021 4 minutes ago, bcgold said: Which is the most reported spider failure, metal or plastic. The Onan manufacture changed from metal to plastic as a cost saving with pr-engineerd failure long after warranty. I am not debating which is more failure prone, I am debating whether there are other engineering variables to take into account, weight/mass equals greater rotational forces period, and if the newer cam/gear assembly was also changed (materials/weight ect) along with the cheaper/lighter plastics would reverse/back dated engineering cause other ill fated results? I just wanted to look at this from all perspectives, with the end result much better than the start without any worsening side effects, another example would be again the SBC a 350ci has an 8" crankshaft balancer and 11" flywheel but is infernally "balanced" a 400ci same 8" balancer and 11" flywheel but with a counterweight added at a specific area on both because it is externally "balanced" both can be swapped back and forth because of same physical dimensions and attachment style but will be detrimental if used on the incorrect application, not saying you aren't right but it would be nice to see this answered basically to the same effect as my example. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bc.gold 3,406 #34 Posted February 21, 2021 (edited) 26 minutes ago, WVHillbilly520H said: I am not debating which is more failure prone, I am debating whether there are other engineering variables to take into account, weight/mass equals greater rotational forces period, and if the newer cam/gear assembly was also changed (materials/weight ect) along with the cheaper/lighter plastics would reverse/back dated engineering cause other ill fated results? I just wanted to look at this from all perspectives, with the end result much better than the start without any worsening side effects, another example would be again the SBC a 350ci has an 8" crankshaft balancer and 11" flywheel but is infernally "balanced" a 400ci same 8" balancer and 11" flywheel but with a counterweight added at a specific area on both because it is externally "balanced" both can be swapped back and forth because of same physical dimensions and attachment style but will be detrimental if used on the incorrect application, not saying you aren't right but it would be nice to see this answered basically to the same effect as my example. The rotating mass your referencing turns twice the speed of the camshaft. Do you think the couple of grams of metal removed to make this notch to accommodate the plastic tab causes the engine to be out of balance. Hint, I had no participation in designing the original spider, just reversed engineered the part from an original. Edited February 21, 2021 by bcgold Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lynnmor 7,815 #35 Posted February 21, 2021 19 minutes ago, WVHillbilly520H said: I am not debating which is more failure prone, I am debating whether there are other engineering variables to take into account, weight/mass equals greater rotational forces period, and if the newer cam/gear assembly was also changed (materials/weight ect) along with the cheaper/lighter plastics would reverse/back dated engineering cause other ill fated results? I just wanted to look at this from all perspectives, with the end result much better than the start without any worsening side effects, another example would be again the SBC a 350ci has an 8" crankshaft balancer and 11" flywheel but is infernally "balanced" a 400ci same 8" balancer and 11" flywheel but with a counterweight added at a specific area on both because it is externally "balanced" both can be swapped back and forth because of same physical dimensions and attachment style but will be detrimental if used on the incorrect application, not saying you aren't right but it would be nice to see this answered basically to the same effect as my example. You are way overthinking this, it is a spacer to keep the flyballs evenly spaced. Both the plastic and metal spacers are a press fit, but the plastic loosens over time. I made tools to drive the spacer on evenly and an aftermarket metal spacer should have a means of installing it. The weight of the spacer means nothing. There is no trade secret, I would make the things if it were worth the trouble, but I'm not convinced that people would pay a good price, just look at those that swap to a Chinese engine at the first sign of trouble. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Handy Don 14,062 #36 Posted February 21, 2021 Now you guys have aroused my curiosity even further. I get that the spinning spider carries the balls in rotation and the centrifugal force pushes them outward. What component is actually displaced by the movement of the balls? Is it a pressure plate behind the spider and the balls "squeeze" themselves between pressure plate and the camshaft cover? So the purpose of the spider is to make sure the balls spin and the "wear" and failure scenario is when the spider doesn't spin. Then the balls don't move outward, the governor thinks the engine isn't spinning fast enough, and the governor gooses the throttle into "runaway" status trying to speed it up. The tabbed spider is to lock it more tightly to the cam gear where before it was a "press tight" onto the shaft in the middle of the cam gear. Is this correct? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bc.gold 3,406 #37 Posted February 21, 2021 12 minutes ago, Handy Don said: Now you guys have aroused my curiosity even further. I get that the spinning spider carries the balls in rotation and the centrifugal force pushes them outward. What component is actually displaced by the movement of the balls? Is it a pressure plate behind the spider and the balls "squeeze" themselves between pressure plate and the camshaft cover? So the purpose of the spider is to make sure the balls spin and the "wear" and failure scenario is when the spider doesn't spin. Then the balls don't move outward, the governor thinks the engine isn't spinning fast enough, and the governor gooses the throttle into "runaway" status trying to speed it up. The tabbed spider is to lock it more tightly to the cam gear where before it was a "press tight" onto the shaft in the middle of the cam gear. Is this correct? The bearings push against the outer edge of the cup which by the way is held stationary with a pin in the timing cover. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Handy Don 14,062 #38 Posted February 21, 2021 THANK YOU @bcgold. So the balls, the cup, (and whatever is holding them in in front?) form a sort of variable thrust bearing. So the cup doesn't rotate, but does it move in and out along the axle as the balls move outward? Or is there another component that does the moving? Where is the spring that resists the movement? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bc.gold 3,406 #39 Posted February 21, 2021 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Handy Don said: THANK YOU @bcgold. So the balls, the cup, (and whatever is holding them in in front?) form a sort of variable thrust bearing. So the cup doesn't rotate, but does it move in and out along the axle as the balls move outward? Or is there another component that does the moving? Where is the spring that resists the movement? Your welcome. The governor cup slides on this dowel which protrudes from the end of the camshaft, that plastic sleeve is positioned at 3 o'clock position to match the pin position on the timing over. The two most important factors, flyball weight which the engineers looked after and governor external spring tension adjustment part of the carburetor linkage left to the mechanic are done with out engine loading. Five balls for the high speed engine ten for the lower 1800 rpm engine, balls are interchangeable. Edited February 21, 2021 by bcgold Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bc.gold 3,406 #40 Posted February 21, 2021 (edited) A good number of Honda engine failures are due to the plastic oil pump gear going south. I would think this would apply to the many clones as well. Edited February 21, 2021 by bcgold 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maxwell-8 4,367 #41 Posted February 21, 2021 8 minutes ago, bcgold said: I would think this would apply to the many clones as well. for sure on the clones. I still don"t understand why they use plastic camshafts, or plastic oil slashers. OKey it's cheaper, but its a necessity that that is made out of good old iron. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bc.gold 3,406 #42 Posted February 21, 2021 2 minutes ago, Maxwell-8 said: for sure on the clones. I still don"t understand why they use plastic camshafts, or plastic oil slashers. OKey it's cheaper, but its a necessity that that is made out of good old iron. Careful for what you wish for, powdered metallurgy is here to stay and the failure rate is high. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WVHillbilly520H 10,376 #43 Posted February 21, 2021 57 minutes ago, lynnmor said: You are way overthinking this, it is a spacer to keep the flyballs evenly spaced. Both the plastic and metal spacers are a press fit, but the plastic loosens over time. I made tools to drive the spacer on evenly and an aftermarket metal spacer should have a means of installing it. The weight of the spacer means nothing. There is no trade secret, I would make the things if it were worth the trouble, but I'm not convinced that people would pay a good price, just look at those that swap to a Chinese engine at the first sign of trouble. As I have stated before never had one apart, I was looking for the whole answer instead "well the old version used it, it should work in the new version", excuse me for being inquisitive how else do you learn and know for sure this will work without causing other issues in the future? Plastics and metals (and their method of manufacture) have came a long way, I am sure there are better grades of plastic for this application like say Radal r5500, or even TO aluminum alloy, I was just relating this to other rotating mechanical parts that I myself had experiences with to get the whole answer. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maxwell-8 4,367 #44 Posted February 21, 2021 34 minutes ago, bcgold said: Careful for what you wish for, powdered metallurgy is here to stay and the failure rate is high. along whit Chinesium is why i buy old stuff. they don't seem to be able to make things like they used to. btw.... FIX THAT ONAN! 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bc.gold 3,406 #45 Posted February 21, 2021 1 hour ago, Maxwell-8 said: OKey it's cheaper, but its a necessity that that is made out of good old iron. Scrap metals have become contaminated with other alloys and this is one of the reasons Chinese steel is junk, their mills are not held to the same standards as those in the USA. Those of use that love our old iron which was made form steel produced in North American steel mills. American Steel vs Chinese Steel Differences in Manufacturing Standards American steel manufacturers are held to a set of standards created by organizations like The American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) that determine the appropriate chemistry mixes for different types of steel. These standards are intended as a safety precaution to ensure the right quality of metal is being used for the right product. Companies in China are producing steel at a faster rate, flooding the market and dropping prices. It is produced at a rapid rate and it is not held up to the same quality standards as American steel. There are anti-dumping laws in place by the World Trade Organization to prevent foreign companies from exporting, or “dumping,” goods to the United States at either prices too far below the domestic price or when they flood the market with an excess quantity that is beyond the normal competition. This situation has lead to trade wars headlined by tariffs between the United States and China. Quality Issues American steel requires some rigorous testing before it can be sold, but Chinese companies are not required to conduct these tests. These tests help keep buildings standing after a hurricane or earthquake and help prevent the steel from becoming brittle and beginning to crack when it is being welded. Some Chinese companies were found putting Boron in their steel to earn a tax rebate. This addition to the steel makes the metal crack easier and is an overall safety hazard. While there are some welding methods that can help prevent the metal from cracking during welding, but the exact amount of Boron added to the metal needs to be disclosed, which they often are not. In addition to testing, American companies are under more strict guidelines for the environment. Carbon emissions in China are two times greater than they are in America for the same amount of steel. Steelmakers in America spend 80 percent more per ton of steel to reduce the pollution levels to both air and water than a steelmaker in China. Metal Standards The American Iron and Steel Institute is the original manufacturing company in the United States, and they specify many different grades of steel. Their expertise, combined with several other parties, formed the American Standard for Testing and Materials, which is a general standards organization that makes documents about the production and testing across multiple types of manufacturing. These standards are not uniformly global though, and that can lead to problems when purchasing foreign steel. Dangers of Foreign Steel A good example of Chinese steel quality issues leading to potential danger is the Oakland Bay Bridge in San Francisco, California. The lower quality of the foreign steel was discovered in 2013 when a seismic test led to the discovery of 32 faulty rods that had to be replaced; they had been corroding in a large pool of water. This is especially problematic since the bridge practically connects two major fault lines, one of which was the cause of the big earthquake in 1989. A metallurgist testified that the Chinese steel was poor quality, and prone to embrittlement, which is why the rods cracked; during construction 750 panels cracked during welding and had to be replaced. There have been a large number of reports of Chinese steel quality issues. Between 2011 and 2012 eight bridges in China, using Chinese steel, collapsed. In 2008 an earthquake struck the Sichuan province, and in one steel school that was poorly built, 700 children were crushed to death. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bc.gold 3,406 #46 Posted February 21, 2021 The inside of an Onan CCK series timing cover, the governor would still work with the missing shoe. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Handy Don 14,062 #47 Posted February 21, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, bcgold said: Your welcome. The governor cup slides on this dowel which protrudes from the end of the camshaft, that plastic sleeve is positioned at 3 o'clock position to match the pin position on the timing over. The two most important factors, flyball weight which the engineers looked after and governor external spring tension adjustment part of the carburetor linkage left to the mechanic are done with out engine loading. Five balls for the high speed engine ten for the lower 1800 rpm engine, balls are interchangeable. I'm getting there. And yep, I get that the 10 balls put more weight in play which moves the cup the same distance at a lower RPM that 5 balls would at a higher RPM. So the non-rotating cup moves outward from the engine toward the timing cover along the pin at the end of the camshaft. And there is a yoke straddling the pin and riding on the cup's "outer" surface connected to governor shaft/lever at the top of the engine. The cup tries to push outward from the rotating balls' force while the external spring acts on the yoke to push the cup inward. And there is lubrication for the balls from the regular oil circulation, right? Got it (probably ) Edited February 21, 2021 by Handy Don 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WVHillbilly520H 10,376 #48 Posted February 21, 2021 45 minutes ago, Handy Don said: I'm getting there. And yep, I get that the 10 balls put more weight in play which moves the cup the same distance at a lower RPM that 5 balls would at a higher RPM. So the non-rotating cup moves outward from the engine toward the timing cover along the pin at the end of the camshaft. And there is a yoke straddling the pin and riding on the cup's "outer" surface connected to governor shaft/lever at the top of the engine. The cup tries to push outward from the rotating balls' force while the external spring acts on the yoke to push the cup inward. And there is lubrication for the balls from the regular oil circulation, right? Got it (probably ) See this is what gets me sometimes I ask for clarification on a subject I got a cranky "you're overthinking it" and someone else gets the more in depth answer, even though I might have been going at from a different angle 😞. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bc.gold 3,406 #49 Posted February 21, 2021 (edited) 13 minutes ago, WVHillbilly520H said: See this is what gets me sometimes I ask for clarification on a subject I got a cranky "you're overthinking it" and someone else gets the more in depth answer, even though I might have been going at from a different angle 😞. I would have worded it a bit differently. Analytical thinkers use knowledge, facts, and information to make sure they get things right. Those with an analytical mind rarely jump to conclusions. They are knowledgeable about their subject and thorough in looking at all the facts before making a decision. Edited February 21, 2021 by bcgold 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WVHillbilly520H 10,376 #50 Posted February 21, 2021 (edited) 56 minutes ago, bcgold said: I would have worded it a bit differently. Analytical thinkers use knowledge, facts, and information to make sure they get things right. Those with an analytical mind rarely jump to conclusions. They are knowledgeable about their subject and thorough in looking at all the facts before making a decision. That is it, I wanted to make sure WE all didn't go down a worm hole, working as a machinist I learned do it right the first time with ALL the available information provided, several times I made machine repair parts by the "Blueprints" to come to find out that particular machine or sub assembly had been modified without sufficient updates to that print or another print "-1" had been drawn for machine "X", not that the part I made wasn't right, it just didn't work for that one, so after a couple rounds of this I went with the "Maintenance Tech" before proceeding to make parts taking measurements asking questions and verifying I was making the correct needed repair part, anyways sorry to ramble on, back to the topic at hand. Edited February 21, 2021 by WVHillbilly520H 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites