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for petes sake

244-h crank, spark, no start, backfire through carb

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for petes sake

morning everyone i am a newbie here.  i am about at my wits end with a tractor that has been given me a bunch of grief consistantly for years.  

i will explain the circustances.  my father in law who is stubborn has a 244-h that he uses in the winter for snow removal.  the past few years he has had trouble stating it. 

usually i go up, dismantle the carb, clean it due to horrible gas, reassemble it and it fires up.  this year is a new challenge.  i was up there yesterday to due my routine b.s.

to get it going but i believe this motor has a new problem.  when cranking over it has spark for sure as i felt it (by mistake) and after trying to crank for a bit the spark plug is 

wet with gas.  this year is different because the carb is getting a backfire regularly while cranking.  i have researched the issues it could be and i am about to go up and test

some stuff.  i am going to do a compression test, and double check spark with a tester, also ensuring plug gap is correct.  i have read a lot of forums on this site and seem to

be pointing towards a stuck valve.  

question of the day from me to all is what do you think with the info supplied could be stopping this beast from starting?

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Achto
1 hour ago, for petes sake said:

 

question of the day from me to all is what do you think with the info supplied could be stopping this beast from starting?

 

First :WRS:

 

On a Briggs engine if you have your 3 main ingredients ( spark, compression, & fuel ) but it will not run. Then most times it means that the flywheel key has sheared, when this happens it will throw the ignition out of time. This would cause the back fires that you are experiencing.

Edited by Achto

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for petes sake

Thanks for the welcome Achto sorry I forgot to state it is an onan engine I understand what your saying and agree totally but it seems to almost catch once in a while. It blows blue smoke through exhaust (not running)and backfires through carb. If the keys was sheered would it seem to almost start?  That’s the defining sound I hear that confuses me.  If either valve was stuck open would it seem to almost start or am I dreaming?  I definitely after every time trying to start it had a soaked plug and backfiring.  Thanks again for the reply.

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Achto
17 minutes ago, for petes sake said:

If the keys was sheered would it seem to almost start?

 

I am not familiar with smaller Onan vertical engines. But if the spark is generated from a magneto on the fly wheel ( which looking up a coil for your engine it looks like this is what you have ) it could still be out of time if the key is sheered. This could cause it to try to fire when a valve is open. Also with a solid state fly wheel generated coil, the engine sparks on every revolution so you may be firing when each valve is partially open. 

Edited by Achto

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for petes sake

Achto, again thanks for reply. I’ll try a compression test and then remove the top covers to see if the sheer pin is good or not. Thanks I’ll let you know how it works out!!!

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for petes sake
On 11/3/2020 at 4:03 PM, for petes sake said:

Achto, again thanks for reply. I’ll try a compression test and then remove the top covers to see if the sheer pin is good or not. Thanks I’ll let you know how it works out!!!

hey achto and all hope everyone had a decent weekend.  update update update.

      another try to get this 244-h started.  here is what i know right now.

compression is at 120 psi

valves have no issues and adjusted correctly

carbureutor seems to be flooding engine.  

flywheel sheer pin definitely is ok as i removed nut and visually checked. 

     so on the weekend i tried to find anything part related to the carb i have.  so far i have two identifying numbers 1 is toro carb number nn10668 and 2 is onan carb number 0146-0526.  i think that the carb needs to be replaced to no avail.

i left the spark plug out of the tractor for two or three days because it seemed to be flooding every time i tried to start it.  as luck would have it this morning i replaced plug and used starting fluid and the engine ran for a few seconds then died.  so i think the carb needs replacing because i cant find anything else wrong with it.  

    so question of the day from me to all is.....   is there another option as far as carbs are concerned for this model or am i doomed!!!!!!! 

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gwest_ca

Have you tried a new correct properly gapped spark plug? They will fire out of the engine but fail to work under compression. If it does not correct the condition save the new plug for the next time.

 

What is the tractor's model number and serial number? 22-14OE01, 22-14OE02 or 72041.

 

Garry

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Tuneup

So, runs on starting fluid and floods. Can you remove and service the carb? Do we have an ethanol issue here? Bowl carb so float stuck? Might be very easy to resolve.

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for petes sake
On 11/13/2020 at 6:44 AM, gwest_ca said:

Have you tried a new correct properly gapped spark plug? They will fire out of the engine but fail to work under compression. If it does not correct the condition save the new plug for the next time.

 

What is the tractor's model number and serial number? 22-14OE01, 22-14OE02 or 72041.

 

Garry

afternoon gary thanks for the info.  i believe its the 22-140e01 unfortunately there is not alot left for me to find as i am coming in on the backside after multiple fingers and @#$%ups playing around with this tractor.

so on a side note i do think i have found a very close replacement carb just have to ensure dimensions on the existing one( i.e. mount spacing throat spacing both sides etc) as i belive now its a carb issue nothing else makes sense 

especially after starting fluid shot ran it for a few seconds.  i can find direct oem replacement carb but 300.00 for a winter only used tractor is above the amount my father in-law is willing to fork out.  so a question to you all, if the dimensions of an aftermarket carb is the same, butterfly hookups the same i should able to get it running? (the only thing i see as different is where the idle mix screw is the original is sideways on the intake side the replacement is vertical in the same area)  thank for the reply

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for petes sake
On 11/13/2020 at 7:12 AM, Tuneup said:

So, runs on starting fluid and floods. Can you remove and service the carb? Do we have an ethanol issue here? Bowl carb so float stuck? Might be very easy to resolve.

hey thanks for question i have had the carb off every year for 4 years as no one seems to think dirt can be a problem is the fuel system. when i tore down the carb this time i checked every oriface, every hole, and the float is ok but could use replacing.  the problem is finding the parts i have a full replacement kit number which was superseded but no one has it.  just my luck hence why i am now thinking of investing in an aftermarket setup carb.  i cant seem to directly match anything to it using cross references so i now am scouring carb pictures to find similar and going from there.  ethanol could be culprit but my honest opinion is to many fingers and @#$%ups that have no idea what they are doing.  basically i get  it running someone adjusts, changes, and touches something. 

so stupid question this carb has inbound  and outbound butterfly (like normal i get it ) the inbound or choke side has a spring loaded level that doesnt seem to do anything. ive looked at the carb a hundred different ways but the spring and lever are irrelevent asa far as i can tell.  even the replacement i have found (possibly) has the same setup.  any ideas or thoughts would be helpful. the carb part nos toro nn10668 and onan 0146-0526 here is the replacement i am looking at right now. replacement for kohler cv20-22 pn 24853 thanks again ahead of time

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Tuneup

Jeez, just points to a sinking float or poorly sealing needle. I had an old Kawi once that had carbs that would stick. It took a good whack with a screwdriver to keep riding.

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for petes sake
11 hours ago, Tuneup said:

Jeez, just points to a sinking float or poorly sealing needle. I had an old Kawi once that had carbs that would stick. It took a good whack with a screwdriver to keep riding.

     

    morning tune up  yes that was one of the first things i tried multiple years in a row to no avail.  in my mind it would be more beneficial to replace it and give it back for winter for snow plowing and source the parts over the winter to try to do a full rebuild. thanks again for input

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for petes sake

morning again so im definitely not computer savvy. sorry to all.    so the first picture is the replacement carb. the second is the original option.  other than throat sizes and the idle screm vertical as opposed to the original horizontal does anyone see any obvious differences.  i have looked at multiple angles of both and the castings for the most part are definitely similar. thanks in advance for the replies 

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for petes sake
2 hours ago, for petes sake said:

morning again so im definitely not computer savvy. sorry to all.    so the first picture is the replacement carb. the second is the original option.  other than throat sizes and the idle screm vertical as opposed to the original horizontal does anyone see any obvious differences.  i have looked at multiple angles of both and the castings for the most part are definitely similar. thanks in advance for the replies 

like i said not computer savvy.....    so just for @#$%and giggles i searched for a kohler cv20 manual.  to my surprise not only did i find one but the manual actually has two full breakdown schematics one of the carbs is a keihin and the other to my surprise is a nikki (which is the one a few of us have on this forum) so i googled the kohler cv20 carb and rebuild kit and low and behold there are kits available that look identical to the nikki parts and at half the price.  i really wish there was a way to confirm specs on the parts.  anyways just an update i thought was interesting for anyone stuck with a nikki carb and no available options

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for petes sake

morning everyone just an update and a call for help if anyone can.

i now have this wheel horse in my garage and now have no room for anything else ie the truck that used to be here.

 info on the tractor

244-h wheel horse

1991 244-h model 22-140e01 serial between 1000001-1999999

onan engine e140v-n / 10964b

so when i finally got it dropped off here i tried to start it (no starting fluid) it ran for a few seconds and died.  i am trying to see what is 

going on with it carb wise so i have the carb alone bolted on to the intake.  after it stopped i noticed there was a far amount of gas 

leaking out the choke side so i assume that means float and needle need replaced and was wondering if anyone could confirm my thoughts or is this normal.  i am going to order the carb i found in my previous post and try my luck.  

is there any way of checking the coil with a multimeter just to confirm everything else is ok?  im more of an automotive guy and i just want to make sure im testing correctly.  thanks to everyone for their help,  it is really appreciated.

 

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ToroHorse

Just went through the carburetor replacement with the one you showed (solenoid shut off on bowl).  It won't fit due to the low speed jet interfering with the air filter housing.  In particular, the breather hose connection.  If you're dead set on using it, the hose barb can be relocated, a bit of plastic work.  The throttle and choke shafts are different, swap in your original ones.  

 

I had fought the flooded carb for quite a while.  New Onan carb several years ago ($$$), worked for a year or so, then started flooding while sitting, hard starting & dripping gas.  Needle valve & seat looked fine, float fine.  Swapped the original 1990 vintage float/needle into it same thing after a few weeks.  Swapped back to the original carb, same thing.  Always ran great once running, luckily.  No parts available for these carbs.  Found a rebuild kit several years ago, from an Onan generator dealer, over $100, passed.

 

Bought that carb you showed, very nicely made (betting it came out of the same factory as the OEM Nikki).  Fuel bowl, gasket, needle valve and float can be swapped into your original.  If nothing else, harvest the parts from it for your original.  The fuel bowl is easy to break if overtightened.  First thought it was leaking from the bowl gasket, but it was flooding and leaking out of the carb body.

 

Frustratingly, mine still leaked with a mish mash of parts (all appeared fine).  Installed a simple 1/4 turn valve in the fuel feed line. That worked great, but easy to forget.  Finally installed a 12 volt, normally closed, fuel rated (Viton seals) solenoid shut off valve in the feed.  Completely cured the issue!!  Engine started immediately, versus the long crank, backfiring, smoking (like you're seeing).  The cut off solenoid on the replacement carb shown, will still allow flooding of the bowl (gas out the choke as you saw) as it seals only the main jet when the engine is off.  

 

The solenoid valve wound up being the best money spent & resurrected the old Horse!  At that low cost, get two in case it craps out.  

 

After all of this, cursing, spewing gas, losing those white bushings on the carb levers (unavailable) & my wife's frustration trying to get it running a number of times, I bought a new zero turn.  After getting the Wheel Horse cleaned up, starting & running perfectly, I sold it.  In retrospect, I probably jumped the gun on the new mower.  Too much bad blood though (wife didn't appreciate all of the repeated cursing & gas stink).

 

Solenoid valve:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00APDNPXG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

1/4" brass hose barbs:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002SAO7XQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

Fuel bowl gaskets:  

Viton square profile O-ring:  McMaster Carr part number 1170n47

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