Jump to content
Dan.gerous

Converting to diesel

Recommended Posts

Dan.gerous

I have been thinking about converting one of the C125's to a diesel to take advantage of the fuel on the farm and just a general update for one of the machines. There are a couple of posts on here about similar conversions, but was interested to know if there is a near plug and play replacement for the Kohler 301.

 

What sort of output shaft would be required - I presume the length would be fairly crucial as would be diameter to be able to take the existing pulleys/PTO.

 

Not interested in stupid power, figured a 10hp Diesel would be sufficient to replace the existing unit, and keep it air cooled for simplicity and package size.

 

Found these at a great price, I appreciate they are cheap Chinese rip offs, but might be worth a punt: https://www.westbankwholesale.co.uk/LA186F1E-10Hp-ELECTRIC-START-DIESEL-ENGINE-REPLACES-YANMAR-L1001

 

If you find it on Fleabay you can get the engine external dimensions which are very similar to the Kohler. Roughly the Kohler is 45cm high x 28cm wide x 45cm deep. The Chinese unit is 49cm high x 33cm wide x 47cm deep - it would easly fit in the engine bay without the shaker plate.

 

Would it be difficult to wire it in? Seems to me that so long as I can get the drive shaft lined up and the pulleys to fit that it shouldnt be a huge project....or am I being overly optimistic?

 

Thoughts appreciated, just thinking about it at the moment but it might just be worth doing - be nice to not have to mess around with spark plugs, coils and condensers - especially as at the moment having issues with these on my latest aquisition!

 

 

s-l1600.jpg

2.jpg

3.jpg

Edited by Dan.gerous
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
ebinmaine

Sounds like a neat idea

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Tractorhead

That‘s a Standart Industy Engine.( the Engine you posted in that Link)

no clue about the quality but it seems ok for that Price.

 

align of the Shaft can be done in worst case with an added mounting plate,

Electrical can be adapted by enlarging the original Wireharness on the Engine,

the Pulley‘s shall fit on the Shaft for a quick Pulley conversion and you‘re good to go.

 

You should check ahead the engine dimensions (height) with your existing Engine, because of the existing hood

if all that fit‘s it‘s a cool afternoon Project.

I would suggest, get a Electric Starter Version with added Pullstart, so it starts easier

but you have an emergency Start option.

 

btw. 10HP of dieselpower is not to compare with 10HP out of an Petrol Engine.

Diesel‘s have mostly little more torque on same HP but sometimes less RPM.

But even that can be compensated with a bigger Enginepulley.

 

@Achto have allready a Diesel converted Horse - His Radpferd

Edited by Tractorhead
  • Like 1
  • Excellent 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Dan.gerous
1 hour ago, Tractorhead said:

That‘s a Standart Industy Engine.( the Engine you posted in that Link)

no clue about the quality but it seems ok for that Price.

 

align of the Shaft can be done in worst case with an added mounting plate,

Electrical can be adapted by enlarging the original Wireharness on the Engine,

the Pulley‘s shall fit on the Shaft for a quick Pulley conversion and you‘re good to go.

 

You should check ahead the engine dimensions (height) with your existing Engine, because of the existing hood

if all that fit‘s it‘s a cool afternoon Project.

I would suggest, get a Electric Starter Version with added Pullstart, so it starts easier

but you have an emergency Start option.

 

btw. 10HP of dieselpower is not to compare with 10HP out of an Petrol Engine.

Diesel‘s have mostly little more torque on same HP but sometimes less RPM.

But even that can be compensated with a bigger Enginepulley.

 

@Achto have allready a Diesel converted Horse - His Radpferd

You make it sound so easy, I almost went and clicked "buy now"!

 

It looks like it will fit under the hood no problem at all, it's almost the same dimensions as the Kohler. I would use the wheelhorse fuel tank so that would create even more room, although I guess it would then need an electric fuel pump.

 

I agree on the electric start, must have option.

 

I suppose you really could do it in a weekend, but getting everything to work might take longer, exhaust etc.

 

Tempting....

 

 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Achto
2 hours ago, Dan.gerous said:

It looks like it will fit under the hood no problem at all, it's almost the same dimensions as the Kohler. I would use the wheelhorse fuel tank so that would create even more room, although I guess it would then need an electric fuel pump.

 

If it will fit under the hood, that takes some work out of the equation. Here are the hurdles that I had to over come. 

 

1. The new Hatz engine was 3" taller than the original.

     Cure - raise the front hood hinge and extend the dash stand.

2. Mounting holes in the engine were not even close.

    Cure - fab new mounting brackets for the engine.

3. Crank shaft was at a different height.

    Cure - make a new drive belt guard.

4. Stock fuel tank had no provision for a fuel return line.

    Cure - solider a bung into the top of the tank for a return fitting. You could also just T the return line back to the feed line.

5. Throttle arm movement required the throttle cable to come from the opposite side as normal.

     Cure mount the throttle cable in the choke side of the dash.

 

I did not add an auxiliary fuel pump to my tractor. The fuel tank sits high enough on mine to allow the injector pump to pull all of the fuel that it wants.

 

The power difference is almost unbelievable, I have yet to find a job that will make the governor kick in. Pulling a plow through changing soil conditions, I could hear the transmission gears working harder as the soil became more dense but the the engine never changed its tone. Keep us up to date if you decide to pull the trigger on this project.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Tractorhead

Hope we see a lot of Pict‘s while Converting @Dan.gerous.

 

Ya know, we like Pic‘s. 😇

and nothing is happen without Evidence😂

 

It‘s not a Whizzard work or even a Miracle, its just a wrenching Job.

At least few measure before the sizes what must be changed,

prepare it and then mounting it and paint before if needed.

It sounds that easy as it is.

Worst case it‘s a Week job include painting, depends on what you like to change and how it have to look.

 

As an Electrical System you just need + and - Wires to Battery what seems allready delivered with that Engine.

if not, that is no problem.

a Ignition Key is still on that Engine what i have seen so far, so you can use that further.

if you like to move it into Dash, extend the original Wire harness, so less Work must be done.

 

As you working on vessel‘s  i see no Problem for you, to realize that.

Same situation, but just on Land. 

Don‘t talk about problems, let us talk about Solutions.

you made it happen, i‘m sure

👍

 

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Skipper

I did a conversion with a twin cylinder diesel of that type, as a test of the engine, and I now import and resell those engines. I solved the output axle problems on my mockup build, with a taperlock pulley for the driveshaft, and then I used an electric clutch for pto. Are you sure that engine has a bearing that is designed to take the force of a standard WH clutch pressing in on the output shaft? otherwise go electrical or the engine will be short lived!

Also you will need an electric fuel pump, if you want to use your under seat tank. The engine needs to be fed, and they are not good at sucking up fuel on their own.

And you need a fuel return line.

Those engines also comes in 12hp and 14hp rated versions. Same outside dimensions or very close to it. I would take the biggest that I could fit under the hood :-)

If you want to discuss the install of that type engine in details, you are welcome to call me on Skype too. Might be easiest that way :-)  

  • Like 2
  • Excellent 1
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Dan.gerous
34 minutes ago, Skipper said:

I did a conversion with a twin cylinder diesel of that type, as a test of the engine, and I now import and resell those engines. I solved the output axle problems on my mockup build, with a taperlock pulley for the driveshaft, and then I used an electric clutch for pto. Are you sure that engine has a bearing that is designed to take the force of a standard WH clutch pressing in on the output shaft? otherwise go electrical or the engine will be short lived!

Also you will need an electric fuel pump, if you want to use your under seat tank. The engine needs to be fed, and they are not good at sucking up fuel on their own.

And you need a fuel return line.

Those engines also comes in 12hp and 14hp rated versions. Same outside dimensions or very close to it. I would take the biggest that I could fit under the hood :-)

If you want to discuss the install of that type engine in details, you are welcome to call me on Skype too. Might be easiest that way :-)  

I read all about your conversion and watched the videos - amazing machine!

 

You have brought up the topic of my next question, can the engine handle the current PTO and drive pulling to one side all the time?

How do you tell?

Is the electric clutch easy to find, is it an easy conversion or can the output shaft be made stronger in another way?

 

That would seem to be the biggest problem to get correct - otherwise I don't see why I shouldn't do it....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Achto
2 hours ago, Dan.gerous said:

Is the electric clutch easy to find, is it an easy conversion or can the output shaft be made stronger in another way?

 

The strength of the output shaft is not an issue, it will handle the side load of the belt. The lack of a thrust bearing on the PTO shaft is an issue if you use a mechanical PTO clutch. The force of holding the fiber clutch plate against the steel plate puts pressure on the end of the crank. Without a thrust bearing on the engine to carry this load you will take out your crank bearings. An electric clutch eliminates the end load. An electric PTO clutch should not be too difficult to find, there are many out there. Just need to verify shaft size, pulley size, and you will need to be able to pin the main body of the clutch to the engine. 

  • Excellent 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Pullstart

What king of chores would you utilize this machine for?  If it were pulling loads, plowing or discing, pushing snow, etc... you could skip the PTO for now, until an electric clutch were sourced...

  • Excellent 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Dan.gerous
2 hours ago, pullstart said:

What king of chores would you utilize this machine for?  If it were pulling loads, plowing or discing, pushing snow, etc... you could skip the PTO for now, until an electric clutch were sourced...

I would like to use it for the heavier tasks like the rotovator, road sweeper, mowing deck, etc but certainly in the short term it could just be used on the Plough, Snow Plow and towing the trailer about the place - it would get plenty of jobs even without the PTO operational.

 

So in theory at least, sourcing an electric clutch and mounting it to the engine is possible as that would make it a really useful machine - would convert more if it worked out as then I have free fuel :-)

Edited by Dan.gerous
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Dan.gerous
3 hours ago, Achto said:

 

The strength of the output shaft is not an issue, it will handle the side load of the belt. The lack of a thrust bearing on the PTO shaft is an issue if you use a mechanical PTO clutch. The force of holding the fiber clutch plate against the steel plate puts pressure on the end of the crank. Without a thrust bearing on the engine to carry this load you will take out your crank bearings. An electric clutch eliminates the end load. An electric PTO clutch should not be too difficult to find, there are many out there. Just need to verify shaft size, pulley size, and you will need to be able to pin the main body of the clutch to the engine. 

Thanks, it makes sense now as I wasnt really sure what the loading issue was - never thought about the inward thrust from the clutch. I wonder if its possible to source one of these chinese units set up with the thrust bearing?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Pullstart

Most (maybe all?) Briggs powered Wheel Horses have an external thrust bearing for this setup.  I have one Briggs left in the fleet to check some day, but it allows use of the side load PTO with a non-thrustable engine...

  • Excellent 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Dan.gerous
9 minutes ago, pullstart said:

Most (maybe all?) Briggs powered Wheel Horses have an external thrust bearing for this setup.  I have one Briggs left in the fleet to check some day, but it allows use of the side load PTO with a non-thrustable engine...

Its always the fine detail that gets complex!

 

So it seems electric clutches are common enough, just a case of figuring out which one would suit - I guess they are a simple on and off switch on the dash, mine are all manual and I have never seen an electric one.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Dan.gerous

So just for arguments sake would this sort of thing work:

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/John-Deere-GT262-Riding-Mower-Electric-PTO-Clutch-AM119536/114315813728?_trkparms=aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D225114%26meid%3D8dcf43516d8541089d7dcb6c0cfe5303%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D12%26mehot%3Dpf%26sd%3D252568343974%26itm%3D114315813728%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DSimplAMLv5PairwiseWebWithBBEV1FilterZeroArw%26brand%3DJohn+Deere&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

 

I guess it bolts to the front of the engine casing to take the inward load off the shaft bearings. Some of the manual ones look like they do the same as they seem to have a mounting bracket for the engine face unlike my manual wheelhorse ones.

 

Im like a newborn baby when it comes to this stuff!

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Pullstart
16 minutes ago, Dan.gerous said:

So just for arguments sake would this sort of thing work:

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/John-Deere-GT262-Riding-Mower-Electric-PTO-Clutch-AM119536/114315813728?_trkparms=aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D225114%26meid%3D8dcf43516d8541089d7dcb6c0cfe5303%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D12%26mehot%3Dpf%26sd%3D252568343974%26itm%3D114315813728%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DSimplAMLv5PairwiseWebWithBBEV1FilterZeroArw%26brand%3DJohn+Deere&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

 

I guess it bolts to the front of the engine casing to take the inward load off the shaft bearings. Some of the manual ones look like they do the same as they seem to have a mounting bracket for the engine face unlike my manual wheelhorse ones.

 

Im like a newborn baby when it comes to this stuff!

 


 

it appears it would work!  Just verifying the shaft diameter is next.  It has an oval shaped slot on the back, that would slide over a 1/4” pin and be cotter pinned in place.  It moves around just a bit, but works just fine that way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Pullstart

  
 

This video shows a bit on how that clutch simply slides on the shaft and pins in place...

  • Excellent 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Dan.gerous
2 minutes ago, pullstart said:


 

it appears it would work!  Just verifying the shaft diameter is next.  It has an oval shaped slot on the back, that would slide over a 1/4” pin and be cotter pinned in place.  It moves around just a bit, but works just fine that way.

Ok, but where does the drive belt go if all this is sitting over the shaft....

 

Sorry! just trying to get it in order in my head :-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Pullstart

The drive belt pulley goes on the engine shaft, then this sits outward of it.  

  • Excellent 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Dan.gerous
2 minutes ago, pullstart said:

The drive belt pulley goes on the engine shaft, then this sits outward of it.  

Ah ok, thanks for the video that makes sense now, so it needs to be on a bracket out from the engine - I was thinking it bolted directly to the casing, but then there would be no room for the drive shaft....doh!

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Skipper

Look at the electric clutch as a 3 part thing, of which only 1 part is directly connected to the output axle. 1 part is the housing that houses the magneto coil. That's just free floating on a bearing. 2. part is connected to the pulley, and also free floating on a bearing. 3. part is directly connected to the output axle, and always rotates 1:1 with that. When you feed the coil current, it pulls part 2 and 3 together, locking the free floating pulley to the output axle. You have the coil housing fixed to the engine, because you don't want it spinning. That would mess up the wire that carries the current ;-).

 

Be careful to chose a long output axle, and a narrow clutch and drive pulley setup. Also it is much easier to find a clutch for a 1" axle, than for any other size.

 

Be observant that the pulleys on an electric clutch has the belt sitting deep. for instance, a 6.3" clutch pulley has a B belt sitting at about 5" diameter. So unless you want your implements running slow, better make the right call on that too :-)

 

Be sure the engine you chose has a good charging circuit, as a good strong clutch zaps quite a lot of power.

 

Take note of the engines rated speed, and dimension pulleys with that in mind also. I overdrive my hydro unit some, and that has made it more usable in low rpm's, and a bit faster on the top. Hydraulics work better in idle too that way. But of cause I can't recommend overdriving it :-)

 

  • Excellent 2
  • Heart 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Dan.gerous
10 hours ago, Skipper said:

Look at the electric clutch as a 3 part thing, of which only 1 part is directly connected to the output axle. 1 part is the housing that houses the magneto coil. That's just free floating on a bearing. 2. part is connected to the pulley, and also free floating on a bearing. 3. part is directly connected to the output axle, and always rotates 1:1 with that. When you feed the coil current, it pulls part 2 and 3 together, locking the free floating pulley to the output axle. You have the coil housing fixed to the engine, because you don't want it spinning. That would mess up the wire that carries the current ;-).

 

Be careful to chose a long output axle, and a narrow clutch and drive pulley setup. Also it is much easier to find a clutch for a 1" axle, than for any other size.

 

Be observant that the pulleys on an electric clutch has the belt sitting deep. for instance, a 6.3" clutch pulley has a B belt sitting at about 5" diameter. So unless you want your implements running slow, better make the right call on that too :-)

 

Be sure the engine you chose has a good charging circuit, as a good strong clutch zaps quite a lot of power.

 

Take note of the engines rated speed, and dimension pulleys with that in mind also. I overdrive my hydro unit some, and that has made it more usable in low rpm's, and a bit faster on the top. Hydraulics work better in idle too that way. But of cause I can't recommend overdriving it :-)

 

Thanks Skipper, some very good points to watch out for there - the true diameter of the pulley must catch a few people out thats for sure.

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Dan.gerous

I was browsing through diesel engines this morning and came across this one:

 

https://www.titan-pro.co.uk/p/268/9HP-Diesel-Engine

 

I'm not particulary interested in the engine, but did notice that it has two PTO options, the normal one and also one off the camshaft that spins at half the engine speed. I didnt even know such a thing was an option, guess that would be handy for driving a hydraulic pump or something.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Skipper

You can also have them with build in reduction gearbox. Not practical for GT use though :-)

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Dan.gerous

Looking at specifications for a hatz 1b40 it is able to handle an inward pressure of 1200nm on the PTO shaft.

 

Do you think that would be enough to handle the original PTO configuration?

 

There is a second hand IB40 unit for sale at about the price of a new Chinese one - I suppose both would be a risk!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...