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BBELL94

1986 417-A stalling

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BBELL94

Hello gents, I am having a problem with my new to me 417-A. When I mowed with it last week, it randomly shut off 3 times in the middle of mowing. No warning, just completely shut off. Fired right back up all 3 times and the PO warned me of this issue so I never gave it a whole lot of thought.

 

Now tonight as I was about 2 hours into mowing, it did the same thing. Just died. But this time, when I went to start it back up, it wouldnt crank over. Like the battery was dead. So I push it over to the truck and hook up the jumpers, and it fires right up as soon as I hit the key. A few puffs of black smoke came out (flooded cylinder I'm assuming).

 

So then I carry on with my mowing for another 10 minutes, and I stop and go to back and it shuts off again! Same thing. No crank/extremely weak crank. Push it over, hook up the jumpers, hit the key and she fires right up. Same puffs of black smoke. 

 

I take off thru the yard heading for the pavilion and I turn around and go to back up into the pavilion and she dies for the 3rd time. No crank again. I left her parked this time.

 

Anyone have an idea what's going on here? Seems electrical to me. Maybe a bad battery? Points and condenser? Coil? Magneto or whatever charges the battery? Any help would be appreciated fellas!

 

 

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Achto

Check your battery while it is running, you if you have 13.5 to 14.5 volts then your charging is working properly. Also check all of your wire connections.

 

Does it have a magneto ignition or a battery ignition? If it has a mag then the battery is not required to make it run. If it has a battery ignition with an automotive style coil then it requires a battery to run.

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BBELL94

It's less than 13 volts while running if I remember correctly. I think it's around 11 volts. And I'm not positive on the ignition. I think its battery powered ignition.

14 minutes ago, Achto said:

Check your battery while it is running, you if you have 13.5 to 14.5 volts then your charging is working properly. Also check all of your wire connections.

 

Does it have a magneto ignition or a battery ignition? If it has a mag then the battery is not required to make it run. If it has a battery ignition with an automotive style coil then it requires a battery to run.

 

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kasey54

It has coil and points.

 

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Achto
14 minutes ago, BBELL94 said:

I think it's around 11 volts

 

This indicates that the charging system is not working. Unplug the voltage regulator / rectifier. Start the engine & check for AC voltage between the two outside wires, it should be 30+ volts AC at 3/4 throttle or above. Check the center wire to ground, this should have battery DC voltage. If this checks out, make sure that the body of the reg/rec has a good ground and that all of the terminals are clean and getting a good connection. If all of this checks out, then replace the reg/rec.

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horseyheaven

I had something similar happen. Drove me nuts for about two years. You’re probably all going to say that I’m crazy. After a little bit of time of mowing sometimes 10 minutes sometimes an hour sometimes 30 minutes it would just shut right off like you turned the key off. After a couple years of messing with it, I found a loose wire on the back of the ammeter gauge. When you start looking through the wiring diagram, it made sense because they are wired in a series. When it would lose contact at the amp meter gauge it would shut off.   Sometimes it would restart, sometimes it would not.  I fixed the wire at the amp gauge and everything was fine. I don’t know if that’s what’s your problem is, but as long as I messed around with my wheel horse it’s worth a shot.  At least it is easy to check by taking the screws out of dash and looking at it.  I hope this helps.  Best of luck to you.  If this is your problem, it will make you scratch your head and smile!

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953 nut

315194062_1electrical.jpg.27988d890071eac05369f87cfec70f6a.jpg

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tunahead72
12 hours ago, horseyheaven said:

I had something similar happen. Drove me nuts for about two years. You’re probably all going to say that I’m crazy. After a little bit of time of mowing sometimes 10 minutes sometimes an hour sometimes 30 minutes it would just shut right off like you turned the key off. After a couple years of messing with it, I found a loose wire on the back of the ammeter gauge. When you start looking through the wiring diagram, it made sense because they are wired in a series. When it would lose contact at the amp meter gauge it would shut off.   Sometimes it would restart, sometimes it would not.  I fixed the wire at the amp gauge and everything was fine. I don’t know if that’s what’s your problem is, but as long as I messed around with my wheel horse it’s worth a shot.  At least it is easy to check by taking the screws out of dash and looking at it.  I hope this helps.  Best of luck to you.  If this is your problem, it will make you scratch your head and smile!

 

If this is truly an '86 417-A, then it has a voltmeter, not an ammeter.  But your point about fixing loose wires and connections is well taken.

 

@BBELL94 Can you confirm?

 

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BBELL94
2 hours ago, tunahead72 said:

 

If this is truly an '86 417-A, then it has a voltmeter, not an ammeter.  But your point about fixing loose wires and connections is well taken.

 

@BBELL94 Can you confirm?

 

Yes sir it has a voltmeter, not an ammeter. But I get his point.

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BBELL94

Update. Checked all the connections and they're all good and tight and clean. Put my multimeter on the battery with key off. 12.5 volts. Keep the multimeter hooked up and started cranking it over. Voltage dropped to 8 volts and quickly dropped to 4 volts as cranking continued and eventually died. Right after it died the voltage started climbing back up to 12 volts slowly. I am going to get a new battery and try it tomorrow. I'll keep updating.

 

Forgot to mention, if I hook to a jumper cable or battery charger, she cranks like shes supposed to and fires right up.

Edited by BBELL94
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Tuneup

Battery is toast and I expect that the charging system is not robust enough to charge it - not that it can be charged. Perhaps the regulator is overheating, suggesting a bad ground or corroded connectors at the regulator. You're almost there!

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BBELL94

More electrical problems now! I put a new battery on and started it up and and drove the tractor around a bit and when I tried the headlights, the tractor shut off. Went to start it back up and everything was dead. No power at the key is seemed like. Waited a minute and tried the key a few more times and it finally started cranking and fired up. Any idea where to start looking for this bug now??

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BBELL94
On 5/19/2020 at 9:21 PM, Achto said:

 

This indicates that the charging system is not working. Unplug the voltage regulator / rectifier. Start the engine & check for AC voltage between the two outside wires, it should be 30+ volts AC at 3/4 throttle or above. Check the center wire to ground, this should have battery DC voltage. If this checks out, make sure that the body of the reg/rec has a good ground and that all of the terminals are clean and getting a good connection. If all of this checks out, then replace the reg/rec.

Where is the regulator or rectifier on this tractor?

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pfrederi

Regulator Top of engine in blue.  What voltage do you have with engine running???

IMG_0066_LI.jpg

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BBELL94
11 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

Regulator Top of engine in blue.  What voltage do you have with engine running???

IMG_0066_LI.jpg

Found it. Thank you sir, and when I try to check the voltage running it's nowhere near 12 volts it's less than 1 volt and eventually the tractor will shut off after about 30 seconds. I dont know if my multimeter is screwed up or if the voltage is actually that low

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kasey54

BBELL94  Here is what I would do; Remove and charge that battery 100 percent with a charger that indicates when full.

  Put it back in tractor and make sure wires are clean and tight.

  Test voltage at battery now.

  Start tractor and test voltage immediately.;; Voltage should be higher than when not running. Not much but higher.

  If it isnt then come back here and get a plan to start checking other things. You have to start somewhere.

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BBELL94
1 hour ago, kasey54 said:

BBELL94  Here is what I would do; Remove and charge that battery 100 percent with a charger that indicates when full.

  Put it back in tractor and make sure wires are clean and tight.

  Test voltage at battery now.

  Start tractor and test voltage immediately.;; Voltage should be higher than when not running. Not much but higher.

  If it isnt then come back here and get a plan to start checking other things. You have to start somewhere.

Think I just found the issue. Broken wire on the ignition. But now how in the heck do I fix a a broken wire that close to the plug?

20200529_171956.jpg

Edited by BBELL94
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kasey54

Looks like a considerable amount of corrosion on the rest of those terminals also. How are the terminals on the switch itself?

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BBELL94
2 minutes ago, kasey54 said:

Looks like a considerable amount of corrosion on the rest of those terminals also. How are the terminals on the switch itself?

They are all tight and not too bad as far as corrosion goes. Nothing a little scotch brite wont fix. How do you replace those broken off corroded terminals? Do they come out of the plastic plug?

20200529_174237.jpg

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lynnmor

I think NAPA might have a replacement pigtail just cut and splice it in. 

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kasey54

I'm noticing black on the backer board of that switch that indicates heat, and poor connection of the terminals and the rivets.

It should be replaced. Obviously that whole plug should be replace as well.

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kasey54

I agree with lynnmor  100 % .

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kasey54

You can easily remove the switch and take it with you to NAPA and match your plug leaving you wires in tack until your ready to splice the new one in.

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kasey54

I have in a pinch for the sake of testing/time  cut each wire from the plug one to a time and crimped a single slide on spade terminal to each wire until I could get a new plug.

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953 nut
2 hours ago, BBELL94 said:

Broken wire on the ignition. But now how in the heck do I fix a a broken wire that close to the plug?

You can buy some Delphi Packard GM 56 series connectors at any good auto parts store. The bad connector can be removed from the plug body with a small screwdriver under the lock tab. You will need the female connector.

s-l300.jpg

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