K 301 noise

[briankd 819]

i just rebuilt this engine it on a c120 and used it today to roll the yard and it ran great pulling a 1000 pound yard roller all kinds of power   it has a noise when it gets under a load like a rattle or slight knock  more on the flywheel side but you give it more throttle it goes away . the crank was turned has new rod and piston and cyl. was bored i did not put the balance gears back in it i don't know what could be making this noise since everything is new. i ran it about 2 1/2 hrs rolling yard and it never changed noise. when snapping throttle from idle to wide open  you don't hear no noise at all  

maybe normal noise my k 181  has somewhat noise on flywheel side and it been like that 5 yrs now i just not around theses that much to determine what normal noise 

 

anyone have thoughts on this ?   thanks Brian 

[lynnmor 7,815]

Did you double check that both the piston and rod are oriented correctly?

[The Tuul Crib 7,339]

Was a crank pin in the rod journal measured for each other?

[briankd 819]

1 minute ago, lynnmor said:

Did you double check that both the piston and rod are oriented correctly?

 

yes i did 

Just now, The Tool Crib said:

Was a crank pin in the rod journal measured for each other?

 

that is one thing i didn't do the crank was turned 20 under and i got a 20 under rod i did't measure i assumed the machine shop got it right  

[953 nut 59,940]

Have you checked you ignition timing with a timing light?

Ignition timing on Kohler engines.

 

Gapping the ignition points at .020 has always been the standard answer to how points should be set. That probably will get you into the ballpark where the engine will run, but with a bit of additional effort you can improve the engine’s power and performance.

The Kohler engine manual in the Red Square files section covers two methods for setting the ignition timing, Static Timing and using a Timing Light.

[briankd 819]

1 hour ago, 953 nut said:

Have you checked you ignition timing with a timing light?

Ignition timing on Kohler engines.

 

Gapping the ignition points at .020 has always been the standard answer to how points should be set. That probably will get you into the ballpark where the engine will run, but with a bit of additional effort you can improve the engine’s power and performance.

The Kohler engine manual in the Red Square files section covers two methods for setting the ignition timing, Static Timing and using a Timing Light.

 

 

yes i put a timing  light on it and it is spot on 

[briankd 819]

i was thinking about this and before i rebuilt this i used it a bit and it had this sort of same noise then and i was afraid of balance gears bad and was going to blow out the side of block . when i tore it down i didn't see anything out of the ordinary just normal wear . this machine shop that did the crank does alot of the local mower shop engines cranks and bores the blocks on theses koulers  i assume they did the crank right when i torqued the rod i had slight side to side play (end play ) which should be normal  on big diesel engines they that way maybe that is what i hear 

 

sure is a waste if i have to tear this back down kinda frustrating 

[briankd 819]

plowed garden tonight with this and it has the noise it is down low on engine i decided to tear it back apart will post what i find maybe couple weeks thanks for the input on this

[lynnmor 7,815]

3 minutes ago, briankd said:

plowed garden tonight with this and it has the noise it is down low on engine i decided to tear it back apart will post what i find maybe couple weeks thanks for the input on this

 

If the noise is as bad as you say, you are doing the right thing, before it gets real expensive.

[The Tuul Crib 7,339]

This is what you dont want to 

happen!  

[briankd 819]

i reached out to norman at I SAVE TRACTORS where i bought the rebuild kit and what a great guy he said would help me with this and wanted me to send a vid of this running with the noise and he would try to determine what it is but my internet so bad here take me 4 hrs to get it off phone and emailed to him lol

he says it is tough to trouble shoot a noise and determine what it is by looking at a video but he would try 

anyone wanting parts and stuff i recommend I SAVE TRACTORS  

[squonk 43,806]

Did you set the crank end play? 

 

[briankd 819]

On 4/8/2020 at 5:06 AM, squonk said:

Did you set the crank end play? 

 

yes i did 

[The Tuul Crib 7,339]

On 4/7/2020 at 7:38 PM, briankd said:

anyone wanting parts and stuff i recommend I SAVE TRACTORS  

I have been using norman now for the last couple years on parts. Cant beat the 

service and support he has! 

[richmondred01 2,307]

On 4/5/2020 at 4:57 PM, briankd said:

 

yes i did 

 

that is one thing i didn't do the crank was turned 20 under and i got a 20 under rod i did't measure i assumed the machine shop got it right  

The concern is the rod more then the machine shop.

I can’t tell you how many aftermarket rods and pistons people have given me to install have been off by several thousands.

I’m not going to bash any particular business selling these aftermarket parts but, I have not been impressed with one business in particular that has been mentioned on this forum often. 
Mic all the new parts I bet you will be surprised.  Take the after market parts to your machine shop before the machine work is done and they will fit them. 

Did you at least use Plastigauge prior to installation?

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by richmondred01

[briankd 819]

13 minutes ago, richmondred01 said:

The concern is the rod more then the machine shop.

I can’t tell you how many aftermarket rods and pistons people have given me to install have been off by several thousands.

I’m not going to bash any particular business selling these aftermarket parts but, I have not been impressed with one business in particular that has been mentioned on this forum often. 
Mic all the new parts I bet you will be surprised.  Take the after market parts to your machine shop before the machine work is done and they will fit them. 

Did you at least use Plastigauge prior to installation?

 

 

i know what you mean i didn't plastigauge it i know the machine shop called me before they turned it and asked if i could get a .025 under rod that is what it would take to do the crank i gave them the crank specs when i took it to them and they according to my dealer have done a lot of kouler engines before and he never had no problems outa them but that don't mean nothing 

 

i get time have alot of other projects and the honey do list to get done first then  i get it tore down will mic the crank and check the rod with plastigauge witch it kinda old school around here i will have to find some  my thoughts it is the rod making the noise 

the old timer at my dealer says he had a main brg do this once wasn't quite seated in brg cover right says he takes dead blow hammer and wacks the crank after install to make sure 

guess never assume other peoples work is done right lol .

[richmondred01 2,307]

Wow. Ok. If they did it at .025 and not as directed then I would say that’s a good place to start.

i wouldn’t run it at this point until checking the journal and rod. 
 

Edited April 12, 2020 by richmondred01

[pfrederi 18,669]

You cannot trust parts any ore no matter the source.  take the block and crank to a reputable machine shop have then do the measurements.  Then you can order the parts but take them back to the machine shop for them to check before they machine....  like Richmondred i have been not impressed by stuff from places frequently mentioned here.

[briankd 819]

i just got this tore apart today pulled the pan and it all looks great but in my opinion it has too much rod end play at the crank journal i can stick a .020 feeler gauge in between the thrust side of rod and crank journal you can grab it and rattle it pretty good rechecked my crank end play i have .004 which is in spec 

took rod cap off and brg surfaces look like new yet but the rod thrust side has some shininess to  it  the crank looks like they ground into the rod journal radius  if it is the machine shop fault i'm sure they will not own up to it . i should have maybe caught this on assembly but i did't this had somewhat the same noise before i tore it down i thought it was the balance gears. this has been turned in the past when the previous owner had it and rebuilt 

i think the rod should be ok yet but if i need another crank i don't know if i should have it turned down to this rod or replace the rod to match the other crank 

if i just do the crank i won't have to pull head and piston 

Edited April 26, 2020 by briankd

[richmondred01 2,307]

I would Pull the piston and rod. Mic the rod.

then mic the journal 

you will have the answer rather then eyeballing.

just a suggestion.

 

[briankd 819]

Just now, richmondred01 said:

I would Pull the piston and rod. Mic the rod.

then mic the journal 

you will have the answer rather then eyeballing.

just a suggestion.

 

 yeppers i was going to get some plasti gauge and check that and mic the crank 

[briankd 819]

update

finally had time to get back on this got the crank out took it to my old wheel horse dealer i don't have a big enough mic to measure this crank he mic it and it is out of round and it was suppose to be turned .020 it measured .022 so they turned it .002 to much. he has another crank for me and i found another machine shop which the owner used to specialize in small engine machining.

he was kind of dumb founded because this shop that screwed this up does his work also can't understand how it out of round when they turned it only ran 3 hrs  

[71_Bronco 1,072]

Ouch, sorry to hear that. Glad you caught it now before it got really bad.

 

I'd still reach out to the shop and tell them what you found. Dont sound accusing, but just lay it out there. Worst they say is "I didn't do that, you must have messed up assembling" and you're no further. If they are a stand up place, you may get some comp for the new crank, who knows.

[briankd 819]

20 minutes ago, 71_Bronco said:

Ouch, sorry to hear that. Glad you caught it now before it got really bad.

 

I'd still reach out to the shop and tell them what you found. Dont sound accusing, but just lay it out there. Worst they say is "I didn't do that, you must have messed up assembling" and you're no further. If they are a stand up place, you may get some comp for the new crank, who knows.

 

bad  thing is it has been fall of 2018 when they did it i just been to dam slow getting this done been busy with every thing under the sun i don't have my receipt from when they did it maybe they have records from doing it i am going to call them and see what they say 

think the rod still good when i get the new crank in it i will plastigauge it then hope I don't need a rod the prices of parts seem to be going up 

this shop i have heard numerus bad things about them they changed hands or their names over the years . any one on here from western Ohio stay away from Ohio crankshaft  one of the members here "Ohio farmer " should know them he lives in the same town

Edited September 22, 2020 by briankd
added

[briankd 819]

well haven't posted to this in awhile I have all the parts I need to get this up and running. got another crank and had it turned by an reputable  old timer that guarantees his work . bought a new .010 rod and will plasti gauge this one before I call it good. probably be after the first of the year before I get on it want this up and running for the spring time garden season plowing etc.