Planetary gears??

[The Tuul Crib 7,332]

 I know there is a thread somewhere on the  

 Removal of these gears inside a K series big block motors. 

 I'm trying to remember what they are called.I remember someone saying they can destroy the inside of the motor if they fly apart. Are these fairly easy to take out at this point?

 I'm taking the motor down to put in new gasket seals on it.

 

[Burnerman 758]

 

[ebinmaine 64,075]

Well done Greg.

 

[The Tuul Crib 7,332]

Can they be easily removed while l have the pan off then?

[953 nut 52,969]

Here is some great information from Brian Miller's Site. I highlighted the section you need in RED.

 

Kohler's Dynamic Counterbalance System -

Various Kohler engine models K241/M10, K301/M12, K321/M14, K341/M16 and K361 use a Dynamic Balance System, which are two out-of-balance gears that rotate on stub shafts that's pressed into the PTO side of the engine block. These counterbalance gears rotate in opposite direction of the crankshaft. These gears reduce the rotating side thrust (vibrating affect) of the crankshaft. Most K241 and M10 engines came from Kohler without balance gears. Only four K241 engines came from Kohler with balance gears installed. These engines have the specification number: 46578, 46590, 46593 & 46718. And only four M10 engines came from Kohler with balance gears installed. These engines have the specification number: 461509, 461513, 461526 and 461534. All other specification numbers for the K241 and M10 engines have no balance gears. However, if your engine vibrates a lot, it should to be precision spin-balanced. But most K241 and M10 engines (without balance gears) run smooth from the factory.

Unless a heavier crankshaft is used (than the original one that came in the engine), in some K241 Kohler engines, it will vibrate more if the balance gears are left out. But the K301, K321, K341 and K361 engines won't vibrate much more without the balance gears. And the balance gears in the K241 engine are the same as the ones used in the K301/M12, K321/M14, K341/M16 and K361 engines. They have the same OEM Kohler part number.

For reasons unknown why Kohler did this, when the balance gears are removed, with the stock factory cast crankshaft, OEM connecting rod and OEM piston/rings assembly, certain K301 engines will vibrate more at any RPM, while other K301 engines with factory rotating parts that didn't originally come with balance gears don't vibrate much at all. The counterweights on the K301 crankshafts that vibrate more and the ones that don't vibrate as much look almost the same, too. Only the K301 engines experience this. Most K321, K341 and K361 engines don't vibrate more without the balance gears, even at high RPM or at wide open throttle.

For most single cylinder Kohler engines, balance gears isn't necessary.

Leaving out the balance gears shouldn't have a noticeable effect on engine vibration, but sometimes they help to reduce engine vibration. So if you choose to reinstall or leave them in an engine that will never turn more than 4,000 RPM (this is the maximum RPM for pulling in stock classes or for general lawn and garden use), make sure that the bearings in the [balance] gears and the stub shafts that they spin on are in good condition. If the bearings are worn and if the balance gears wobble, they'll wear the crankshaft gear teeth and they could break, possibly destroying the engine. By the way - the balance gears alignment tool (timing gage) is no longer available from Kohler. If you find a good used one or a new one from a Kohler dealer's old stock, the Kohler part numbers are 25 455 06-S, 10355 or Y-357. It's much easier to use this plastic tool when aligning the balance gears in time with the crankshaft. See the animated image to the right for correct identification of this tool.

Once, just for curiosity, after I've rebuilt a K301 Kohler engine, I've ran the engine with the balance gears installed and correctly aligned with the crankshaft. Then I removed the balance gears just to see if the engine would vibrate more. (It wasn't a lot of work to remove the gears. I removed the oil pan, snap rings, washers and spacers, rotated the crankshaft to clear the balance gears, and lifted the gears right out.) Anyway, I found that without the balance gears, the engine vibrated EXACTLY the same as when the balance gears were installed! Wonder why Kohler installed them in the first place. ???? 

 Counterbalance gears does no good to install them. Most Kohler engines don't come with them and they do very little to help reduce engine vibration. When left out, the engine will not vibrate more than usual. Besides, being balance gears are made of cast iron and operate out of balance on a single needle bearing, they've been known to break and destroy the crankshaft, cam and engine block. I've seen this happen a few times. Therefore, I highly recommend leaving them out.

By the way - I've seen balance gears in the K241, K301, K321, K341 and K361 engines, but not every one of these engines have balance gears. I've even seen some Kohler Magnum M16 engines have three balance gears! Anyway, it seems that Kohler was selective in which engines they put them in. Perhaps they only put them in engines that was installed in a "luxury-type" of garden tractor to help reduce operator discomfort. And every balance gear I've ever seen appear to be exactly the same weight and design.

If a stock OEM-type piston assembly and connecting rod is going to be (re)used, there's no need to re-balance the crankshaft/piston/rod assembly if these gears are removed. If you want, leave the balance gears out. Actually, they're more trouble reinstalling and align with the crankshaft than they're worth. You won't notice that much difference in the vibration of the engine, either. It won't damage anything and it won't hurt anything. The engine will operate just fine without them.

The balance gears in a Kohler engine can be removed without removing the crankshaft. Use quality-made heavy duty snap ring pliers with 90° tips to remove the [heavy gauge] snap rings that retain the balance gears. Because these snap rings are actually thicker than ordinary ones which makes them harder to expand. A flat screwdriver may need to be wedged under each snap ring to help them off the stub shafts. (Been there, done that many times. And it's difficult each time.) Be sure to remove the spacers (if equipped) and shims from the shafts, too. The counterweights on the K301 crankshaft are machined off, allowing room to remove the balance gears. But on a K321, K341 and K361 engine, one of the counterweights on the crankshaft may be in the way. If it is, try driving the pins into the crankcase from outside the PTO end of the block. By the way - the shims from removal of the balance gears can be used as camshaft shims to set the cam-to-block clearance on the K241-K361 engines.

Don't (re)install the balance gears in an engine if it's going to turn above 4,000 RPM! (The factory maximum RPM for virtually all small gas engines, including all of Kohler engines is 3,600.) The high RPM or wide open throttle operation could cause them to break and destroy the engine! So when building an engine that's going to turn above 4,000 RPM, these gears (and spacers) MUST be permanently removed! Remember - "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." It's okay to leave the stub shafts in the block. Or if you want, the balance gear stub shafts can be removed with a hardened 7/16" steel rod and a big hammer to drive them out from the PTO end of the block. They will fall into the block. And don't worry about driving out the stub shafts with a hammer, the engine block will not crack. But using a hydraulic press to drive the pins out could cause the block to crack.

The easiest way to block off the stub shaft holes after removal is with 1/2" tapered expansion/cup plugs. Use silicone sealant to prevent an oil leak, too. Another way to block off the stub shaft holes to cut 3/8" NPT threads into the holes from outside the block, and then install a couple of 3/8" NPT Hex Socket (Allen) pipe plugs. Click or tap here if you need either these parts.

Advertisement:

If the balance gears have been removed from a K301 engine, and it vibrates more than before, and you would like to have your rotating assembly (and flywheel) dynamically precision spin-balanced to reduce the vibration, then please contact A-1 Miller's Performance Enterprises | 1501 W. Old Plank Rd. | Columbia, MO (Missouri) 65203-9136 USA |  Phone: 1-573-256-0313 (shop) | 1-573-881-7229 (cell; when leaving a voice message, please speak slowly when giving your phone number). Please call Monday-Friday, except holidays, 9am to 5pm, Central time zone. If no answer, please try again later. (When speaking with Brian, please be patient because I stutter.) A-1 Miller's shop is open to the public from 9am to 5pm, including weekends, except holidays. Please call before coming so I'll be here waiting for your arrival.  E-mail: pullingtractor@aol.com. Directions to our shop | 1501 West Old Plank Road, Columbia, MO - Google Maps or Map of 1501 West Old Plank Road, Columbia, MO by MapQuest. If you're the kind of person who don't trust delivery/shipping companies (mis)handling your high-dollar and fragile merchandise, you can make the long drive to A-1 Miller's shop to personally drop off and/or pick up your carburetor, clutch assembly, engine, transaxle, tractor, etc. "The road to a friend's house (or shop) is never long." (We're planning to relocate to other property with a bigger and better shop so we can provide many more high quality parts and professional services.) Please click here to place an order.

Dynamic Precision Spin-Balancing Service - Balance (cast or steel) flywheel for Kohler 10-16hp cast iron block engine. $75.00 each labor, plus return shipping & handling. Balance cast iron (Kohler) crankshaft and matching connecting rod and piston assembly. $260.00 per rotating assembly, plus return shipping & handling. [Return To Previous Paragraph, Section or Website]

[The Tuul Crib 7,332]

9 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

Here is some great information from Brian Miller's Site. I highlighted the section you need in RED.

 

Kohler's Dynamic Counterbalance System -

Various Kohler engine models K241/M10, K301/M12, K321/M14, K341/M16 and K361 use a Dynamic Balance System, which are two out-of-balance gears that rotate on stub shafts that's pressed into the PTO side of the engine block. These counterbalance gears rotate in opposite direction of the crankshaft. These gears reduce the rotating side thrust (vibrating affect) of the crankshaft. Most K241 and M10 engines came from Kohler without balance gears. Only four K241 engines came from Kohler with balance gears installed. These engines have the specification number: 46578, 46590, 46593 & 46718. And only four M10 engines came from Kohler with balance gears installed. These engines have the specification number: 461509, 461513, 461526 and 461534. All other specification numbers for the K241 and M10 engines have no balance gears. However, if your engine vibrates a lot, it should to be precision spin-balanced. But most K241 and M10 engines (without balance gears) run smooth from the factory.

Unless a heavier crankshaft is used (than the original one that came in the engine), in some K241 Kohler engines, it will vibrate more if the balance gears are left out. But the K301, K321, K341 and K361 engines won't vibrate much more without the balance gears. And the balance gears in the K241 engine are the same as the ones used in the K301/M12, K321/M14, K341/M16 and K361 engines. They have the same OEM Kohler part number.

For reasons unknown why Kohler did this, when the balance gears are removed, with the stock factory cast crankshaft, OEM connecting rod and OEM piston/rings assembly, certain K301 engines will vibrate more at any RPM, while other K301 engines with factory rotating parts that didn't originally come with balance gears don't vibrate much at all. The counterweights on the K301 crankshafts that vibrate more and the ones that don't vibrate as much look almost the same, too. Only the K301 engines experience this. Most K321, K341 and K361 engines don't vibrate more without the balance gears, even at high RPM or at wide open throttle.

For most single cylinder Kohler engines, balance gears isn't necessary.

Leaving out the balance gears shouldn't have a noticeable effect on engine vibration, but sometimes they help to reduce engine vibration. So if you choose to reinstall or leave them in an engine that will never turn more than 4,000 RPM (this is the maximum RPM for pulling in stock classes or for general lawn and garden use), make sure that the bearings in the [balance] gears and the stub shafts that they spin on are in good condition. If the bearings are worn and if the balance gears wobble, they'll wear the crankshaft gear teeth and they could break, possibly destroying the engine. By the way - the balance gears alignment tool (timing gage) is no longer available from Kohler. If you find a good used one or a new one from a Kohler dealer's old stock, the Kohler part numbers are 25 455 06-S, 10355 or Y-357. It's much easier to use this plastic tool when aligning the balance gears in time with the crankshaft. See the animated image to the right for correct identification of this tool.

Once, just for curiosity, after I've rebuilt a K301 Kohler engine, I've ran the engine with the balance gears installed and correctly aligned with the crankshaft. Then I removed the balance gears just to see if the engine would vibrate more. (It wasn't a lot of work to remove the gears. I removed the oil pan, snap rings, washers and spacers, rotated the crankshaft to clear the balance gears, and lifted the gears right out.) Anyway, I found that without the balance gears, the engine vibrated EXACTLY the same as when the balance gears were installed! Wonder why Kohler installed them in the first place. ???? 

 Counterbalance gears does no good to install them. Most Kohler engines don't come with them and they do very little to help reduce engine vibration. When left out, the engine will not vibrate more than usual. Besides, being balance gears are made of cast iron and operate out of balance on a single needle bearing, they've been known to break and destroy the crankshaft, cam and engine block. I've seen this happen a few times. Therefore, I highly recommend leaving them out.

By the way - I've seen balance gears in the K241, K301, K321, K341 and K361 engines, but not every one of these engines have balance gears. I've even seen some Kohler Magnum M16 engines have three balance gears! Anyway, it seems that Kohler was selective in which engines they put them in. Perhaps they only put them in engines that was installed in a "luxury-type" of garden tractor to help reduce operator discomfort. And every balance gear I've ever seen appear to be exactly the same weight and design.

If a stock OEM-type piston assembly and connecting rod is going to be (re)used, there's no need to re-balance the crankshaft/piston/rod assembly if these gears are removed. If you want, leave the balance gears out. Actually, they're more trouble reinstalling and align with the crankshaft than they're worth. You won't notice that much difference in the vibration of the engine, either. It won't damage anything and it won't hurt anything. The engine will operate just fine without them.

The balance gears in a Kohler engine can be removed without removing the crankshaft. Use quality-made heavy duty snap ring pliers with 90° tips to remove the [heavy gauge] snap rings that retain the balance gears. Because these snap rings are actually thicker than ordinary ones which makes them harder to expand. A flat screwdriver may need to be wedged under each snap ring to help them off the stub shafts. (Been there, done that many times. And it's difficult each time.) Be sure to remove the spacers (if equipped) and shims from the shafts, too. The counterweights on the K301 crankshaft are machined off, allowing room to remove the balance gears. But on a K321, K341 and K361 engine, one of the counterweights on the crankshaft may be in the way. If it is, try driving the pins into the crankcase from outside the PTO end of the block. By the way - the shims from removal of the balance gears can be used as camshaft shims to set the cam-to-block clearance on the K241-K361 engines.

Don't (re)install the balance gears in an engine if it's going to turn above 4,000 RPM! (The factory maximum RPM for virtually all small gas engines, including all of Kohler engines is 3,600.) The high RPM or wide open throttle operation could cause them to break and destroy the engine! So when building an engine that's going to turn above 4,000 RPM, these gears (and spacers) MUST be permanently removed! Remember - "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." It's okay to leave the stub shafts in the block. Or if you want, the balance gear stub shafts can be removed with a hardened 7/16" steel rod and a big hammer to drive them out from the PTO end of the block. They will fall into the block. And don't worry about driving out the stub shafts with a hammer, the engine block will not crack. But using a hydraulic press to drive the pins out could cause the block to crack.

The easiest way to block off the stub shaft holes after removal is with 1/2" tapered expansion/cup plugs. Use silicone sealant to prevent an oil leak, too. Another way to block off the stub shaft holes to cut 3/8" NPT threads into the holes from outside the block, and then install a couple of 3/8" NPT Hex Socket (Allen) pipe plugs. Click or tap here if you need either these parts.

Advertisement:

If the balance gears have been removed from a K301 engine, and it vibrates more than before, and you would like to have your rotating assembly (and flywheel) dynamically precision spin-balanced to reduce the vibration, then please contact A-1 Miller's Performance Enterprises | 1501 W. Old Plank Rd. | Columbia, MO (Missouri) 65203-9136 USA |  Phone: 1-573-256-0313 (shop) | 1-573-881-7229 (cell; when leaving a voice message, please speak slowly when giving your phone number). Please call Monday-Friday, except holidays, 9am to 5pm, Central time zone. If no answer, please try again later. (When speaking with Brian, please be patient because I stutter.) A-1 Miller's shop is open to the public from 9am to 5pm, including weekends, except holidays. Please call before coming so I'll be here waiting for your arrival.  E-mail: pullingtractor@aol.com. Directions to our shop | 1501 West Old Plank Road, Columbia, MO - Google Maps or Map of 1501 West Old Plank Road, Columbia, MO by MapQuest. If you're the kind of person who don't trust delivery/shipping companies (mis)handling your high-dollar and fragile merchandise, you can make the long drive to A-1 Miller's shop to personally drop off and/or pick up your carburetor, clutch assembly, engine, transaxle, tractor, etc. "The road to a friend's house (or shop) is never long." (We're planning to relocate to other property with a bigger and better shop so we can provide many more high quality parts and professional services.) Please click here to place an order.

Dynamic Precision Spin-Balancing Service - Balance (cast or steel) flywheel for Kohler 10-16hp cast iron block engine. $75.00 each labor, plus return shipping & handling. Balance cast iron (Kohler) crankshaft and matching connecting rod and piston assembly. $260.00 per rotating assembly, plus return shipping & handling. [Return To Previous Paragraph, Section or Website]

 Excellent information 

Thanx!!

[Burnerman 758]

45 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

Well done Greg.

 

😂Thanks! It’s pouring rain and my garage is full so I can’t move around. I’m armchair tractoring tonight. 😂😂😂

[ebinmaine 64,075]

5 minutes ago, Burnerman said:

armchair tractoring

Summa my best life's moments.

 

[Pullstart 60,696]

Even though the red text is applicable to Randy’s situation, the whole read is worth it 

[953 nut 52,969]

9 minutes ago, pullstart said:

Even though the red text is applicable to Randy’s situation, the whole read is worth it 

That is why I posted the entire thing.