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DeD

Axle and hub issues

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DeD

I have a c-160 8 speed that needs a new hub and I need to fix the wanged-out keyway in the axle.

 

I figure to just mill in a new key seat about 180 degrees from the old key way so that doesn't worry me too much.

 

The hub it self is toast, the best way for me to fix it is replace it.

There is my 1st problem. 

Jacks small equipment has one along with the gasket for the cases but I'm not sure if I'm looking at the right model.

He has them listed as Toro's. 

My Model number is 1 038T.

He does not seem to list Wheel horse model numbers.

I'd like to be sure before I order parts.

 

So right now I need a hub and I need to order a key cutter.

 

 

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ebinmaine

Just gave you a welcome in the other thread.

 

If you have the capability of cutting a key into an axle, do you have the capability of broaching a new keyway into your old hub?

 

Used hubs are available from A to Z tractor.com.

 

I would not at all be interested in purchasing a new one. A good used one is half the price.

 

As I said in the other thread, perhaps your letter T is a 1?

 

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Stormin

 If it's the bore of the hub that is worn, is it possible you can sleeve it?

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Achto
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, DeD said:

I figure to just mill in a new key seat about 180 degrees from the old key way so that doesn't worry me too much.

 

The hub it self is toast, the best way for me to fix it is replace it

:WRS:

 

I thought that I would share with you the way I fix hub & axle issues.

 

If the bore is in fair shape but the key way is junk, I will broach a new key way 90 degrees to the old one. I will then drill & tap a hole for a set screw over the new key way. When I reassemble, I will install both set screws to give a little extra grip on the axle.

 

IMG_20180403_185436110-min.jpg.0e92ec8bc674222ea3d514df748e602b.jpg

 

For the axles I will weld the old key way shut then throw it in a lathe to get it back in round. This process is probably optional, but for some reason I feel better knowing that the old key way has been filled in.

 

IMG_20180310_085722398_HDR-min.jpg.d50638cca6079e052adf9c444a353f2c.jpg

 

I have my own feelings about the use of woodruff keys on the axle. I'm not a fan of it because the 1" long woodruff key leaves a lot of hub surface area untouched by the key. I choose to cut a straight key way in the axle 180 degrees to where the old key way was, this will allow the use of a longer 1/4" strait key. With this process I can take advantage of all of the key way surface. If you choose this route make sure that you don't run your new key way past  the depth of the hub, you don't want the new key way to extend into to axle seal.

 

IMG_20180311_115713927-min.jpg.73fbc7647936a0a3ccdccc932465f74b.jpg

 

I have had good luck with this process.

Edited by Achto
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DeD

Thanks for the tips/info.

 

Achto, I agree with you, the woodruff key is a poor design, cheaper to make so that's why it is what it is.

 

I have thought about doing the key like you did.

 

This will be the 2nd time I repaired the hub for a key issue.

The first time the hub worked its way loose and worked its way in towards the transaxle. This allowed the key to work its way out and as it did it chamfered the hub with a LARGE chamfer till it fell out.

I repaired it by getting a new key and sliding the hub out further on the axle and locking it there.

Not the best repair but it lasted for a couple of months.

This time the backside of the hub broke a large chunk out.

 

Here is a couple of pictures.

 

You can see the hubs are different, I think one has been replaced before.

 

 

 

PA070247.JPG

PA070248.JPG

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ebinmaine
15 minutes ago, DeD said:

You can see the hubs are different, I think one has been replaced before.

You are correct about that. The hub on the left is the heavy duty version with 2 set screws that began to see usage in the late 70s and early 80s.

 

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DeD
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

You are correct about that. The hub on the left is the heavy duty version with 2 set screws that began to see usage in the late 70s and early 80s.

 

So it was replaced.

 

Per your previous question, I don't have the ability to broach a key way in the hub unless I bought all the tooling.

By the time I do that I can buy a new one.

 

Not to mention the old one is Junk.

 

If I had the equipment I'd just make my own hub out of a solid chunk of good quality steel 6" in dia x about 2 1/2 long.

 

I wouldn't machine out the back side of the flange, just leave the whole thing solid.

 

It would be a lot heavier, but that's a good thing, no need for wheel weights then.:lol:

Edited by DeD
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McGrew

DeD,  I machined a new set of hubs for my Raider 10 awhile back.    I did relieve the backside, but left a lot more meat in the flanges and hubs.  I also machined the axles for full length keys.      I’m guessing those hubs will outlast me!  Danny

 

 

6CC3460E-D014-4474-919E-B9A15451108A.jpeg

19D43498-503B-44EC-BF56-1848BF731E16.jpeg

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MrOiluj52
13 hours ago, DeD said:

Achto, I agree with you, the woodruff key is a poor design, cheaper to make so that's why it is what it is.

Maybe cheaper, but the Woodruff design keeps as much meat in the axle shaft area as possible. Anytime you remove metal from a shaft fitment area the shaft is weaker. The Woodruff design is really good keeping the milled area in the center of the hub and all the metal is intact in the stress area at the rear edge of the hub.

Some of these tractors have run 20-30 years and more with no problems. I found that when I get another machine, I always look at this area and if there is any question, (evidence of movement), I replace the key and the setscrews and or hubs as necessary. Especially if it is a keeper.

Ed did this keyway fix a while back, interesting.

https://www.wheelhorseforum.com/topic/56859-key-way-fix/

 

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DeD
14 hours ago, McGrew said:

DeD,  I machined a new set of hubs for my Raider 10 awhile back.    I did relieve the backside, but left a lot more meat in the flanges and hubs.  I also machined the axles for full length keys.      I’m guessing those hubs will outlast me!  Danny

 

 

6CC3460E-D014-4474-919E-B9A15451108A.jpeg

19D43498-503B-44EC-BF56-1848BF731E16.jpeg

 

Nice job, I'm lazy so I wouldn't of machined the back side.

I'm sure they will out last you, course don't know how old you are or how much you use your tractor.

What kind of steel did you use?

Back when I had access to all the machinery and steel one could want I'd used 4140 or some type of tool steel and left it soft as that's what there was a lot of available to me.

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DeD
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, OILUJ52 said:

Maybe cheaper, but the Woodruff design keeps as much meat in the axle shaft area as possible. Anytime you remove metal from a shaft fitment area the shaft is weaker. The Woodruff design is really good keeping the milled area in the center of the hub and all the metal is intact in the stress area at the rear edge of the hub.

Some of these tractors have run 20-30 years and more with no problems. I found that when I get another machine, I always look at this area and if there is any question, (evidence of movement), I replace the key and the setscrews and or hubs as necessary. Especially if it is a keeper.

Ed did this keyway fix a while back, interesting.

https://www.wheelhorseforum.com/topic/56859-key-way-fix/

 

 

The axle seems to get beat up cause the key is too short, both my axles have the keyway wanged (old machinist terminology:lol:), if it was longer and had more area to push against don't you think it would be stronger/last longer?

In my experience the axles need reworking cause the keyway gets wanged out, never seen and axle break, has that happened to anyone's knowledge?

I think I get what your talking about in the hub. My hub failed the 2nd time cause of 2 reasons I think.

1) the key was in the thinner part of the hub so it blew a chunk of the hub out, kind of points out that maybe the hub is too thin here, but again, less meatal=less cost.

2) my hub had no 2nd set screw in it to help hold the hub on the axle tightly.

 

Your right about the longevity of these things, mine is a '75, so its lasted approx. 45 years. In the last 10 years I've used mine hard. I use it to pull a 10 cubic ft trailer which I load up with mostly firewood. But occasionally rocks.

I have to use chains on my tires and drive in the woods a lot, over branches, rocks and other stuff.

One of the things I love about this tractor is when it  gets stuck I can put it a lower gear, let the clutch out and while the tires are spinning I can get off and push the tractor, this usually gets me unstuck.

OSHA would faint but it gets the job done!!:D

 

I saw the post with Ed's fix.

While its a great way to fix it and he did a great job of it, I don't have a welder so that's out for me.

Personally I think machining a new key on the opposite side is easier only cause my skill set is higher with a milling machine than a welder.

Edited by DeD
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MrOiluj52

Yeah, no doubt in my mind looseness is a problem. Keeping them tight is essential. Two set screws a big help, along with hub that fits right. 

As far as the key, I would rather run the new milled key way toward the outer edge of the axle to gain more key area. This would put more of the load on an area of the hub that has the most meat and not compromise the shaft. 

 

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McGrew

DeD,  I admit the removal of all that steel did make quite a pile of shavings, and took a significant amount of time.   I too thought about not relieving them but in the end decided to go for it.   The grade of steel I used?    It was a chunk left over from  a project, and I believe it was 1018, but no way to be certain.  In the pic, you can see how much more meat I left.  Danny 

DSC_0161.JPG

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ebinmaine
32 minutes ago, McGrew said:

DeD,  I admit the removal of all that steel did make quite a pile of shavings, and took a significant amount of time.   I too thought about not relieving them but in the end decided to go for it.   The grade of steel I used?    It was a chunk left over from  a project, and I believe it was 1018, but no way to be certain.  In the pic, you can see how much more meat I left.  Danny 

DSC_0161.JPG

Them's rugged.

 

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DeD
9 hours ago, McGrew said:

DeD,  I admit the removal of all that steel did make quite a pile of shavings, and took a significant amount of time.   I too thought about not relieving them but in the end decided to go for it.   The grade of steel I used?    It was a chunk left over from  a project, and I believe it was 1018, but no way to be certain.  In the pic, you can see how much more meat I left.  Danny 

DSC_0161.JPG

 

You do nice machine work, nice to see softened edges and radiused inside corners. So many Machinist and Tool makers seem to love sharp corners and edges.

 

Another thing you lost by machining those parts was the added weight in the rear to aid in traction. I always seem lacking to have enough weight in the back even with my considerable ballast:D

 

 

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McGrew

DeD and Eric, Thank you!  I am always wary of sharp corners, as that creates stress risers.  Plus, I just like the look of the radiused corners.  All my work is done on manual machines, and I had a problem with chatter when I switched to the radiused cutter.  Fortunately, I managed to polish most of it out.  Danny

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ebinmaine
6 hours ago, DeD said:

lacking to have enough weight in the back even with my considerable ballast

I can assure you I'm well into the field of competition for ballast weight. :P

 

Fluid fill your tires. Add steel weight.

 

I have both on my C160 and RARELY have traction issues.

I've added roughly 255 pounds fluid and another 100 metal.

 

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MrOiluj52

Talking with one of my WH buddies about my response in this thread. He said I need to explain further.

Well here it goes.

First, one misconception is blaming the part that broke as the weak link. Sometimes true, most of the time not so.

We have to look at all the components in the chain. Pretty simple, Hub, shaft, keyway, and set screws.

We also look at load, use history, maintenance and repairs.

From the three shafts I have been a part of repairing, it seems as if the operator failed to know the shaft was shifting and moving inside the hub.

As the hub and axle move, ever so slightly, inside each other, wear occurs. At some point the key is all on its own taking the entire load because the tolerances in the bore are to far gone to help.

Looseness, result chunked out key.

Here is what I think a good repair should be when we first find movement.

It is essential for the hub, when fitted to the axle, to fit snug. If it slides on easily, it is to loose, and if there would be and overload or heavy duty use such as ground engaging, failure would be certain.

Might last a while if one was just cutting grass.

I don't polish these parts, just clean and put them together dry. A nice fitting hub should need to be tapped onto the shaft, not driven. Always replace the key, I install new set screws also.

Well DC I tried.

Just my 2.

 

 

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ebinmaine
22 minutes ago, OILUJ52 said:

Always replace the key, I install new set screws also.

All good advice above.

 

I didn't ever know until a few years ago that a set screw is a "wear item".

 

 

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MrOiluj52

I like those hubs McGrew machined. The best part is the bore can be custom fit to the shafts and get the perfect fit.

 

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MrOiluj52

Was working on "jesse james" (C141 project tractor) today and found movement in both rear hubs. The left one slid right off (tire and all) and the right one took a little pull. I got a good hub and tried it on the left side and it slid on by hand about and inch then stopped. (you can see by rust tracks on the axle how far it went on) This prompt me to take a few measurements. Mid way on the axle measures 1.125 right on the money, towards the out side on the edge is 1.121 and the inboard side is 1.122. that hub had been moving around for a good while. The right one was 1.125 and 1.124 on the outside edge. I just was surprised of the wear pattern. I got a couple good hubs the fit ok and I think it will be fine, the key ways are good.

I included a pic of the set screw ends new compared to used to show the difference in cup area of the screw. I don't reuse them. Also is a pic of the worn out hub.

Just some info to chew on and pass along.

1370182504_WHAxleC141ShaftLeft1.jpg.942e1b82d69618e0bb4a4de1b61aa64e.jpg882219635_WHAxleC141WornHub1.jpg.5985af8a0735c803ab8f3e4640a607de.jpg

1338466803_WHAxleSetScrews1.jpg.18b2d7606acc3ffd059a899f30daf960.jpg

 

Edited by OILUJ52

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DeD

Well I finally got my tractor all back together.

 

My mill died while milling one of the keyways. So I had to wait for parts before I could finish the tractor.

 

I ended up milling a full length keyway (2 1/4" key) in the axle and a flat 90 degrees to that so that it matches up with the 2nd set screw on the hub.

The key way starts about 3/16 in from the end of the axle so the hub sits in a minor amount more and the key is captured so it can never work its way out if the setscrew fails.

 

I feel I have improved upon the original design/assembly.

 

I reused the original set screws. The flats that are on the end of the used set screws are an advantage in my mind. They have a larger area to resist spinning/movement as opposed to a small area of the sharp end of a fresh cup.

 

The method of putting a set screw on the axle alone is a poor setup. It has 2 flaws. One big flaw that the set screw only touches or pushes on the axle in 2 small spots at the crown of the axle. This gives 2 small spots on the axle to hold and resist spinning as opposed to a flat with a large surface to seat on with a flat that makes it very hard, almost impossible to spin the hub on the axle even without a key. And secondly it mars the axle making it harder to get off.

 

So tomorrow I'm going to fire up the chipper and make a couple of loads of chips and give it a test.

 

I have never heard of set screws as wear items. Of course I have very rarely seen assemblies like Wheel Horses hub/axle setup. I was taught never to put a set screw on a shaft without a flat. Of course I worked on custom machined assemblies, not a mass produced item. The risk/reward of a cheaper assembly like woodruff keys and no flats for set screws is not worth the risk of failure. 

 

Just my .02.

 

 

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DeD

Oh, and a possible fix for the axles that are worn as mention in OILJU52's post.

Knurl the axle and regrind or turn the axle afterwards. I very light knurl should be all that's needed.

If done lightly and left slightly oversized one still should be able to lightly press the hub back on.

 

Anyone ever try that?  I have used that method on equipment in the past, while not ideal it will usually hold up reasonably well.

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pfrederi
9 hours ago, DeD said:

Well I finally got my tractor all back together.

 

My mill died while milling one of the keyways. So I had to wait for parts before I could finish the tractor.

 

I ended up milling a full length keyway (2 1/4" key) in the axle and a flat 90 degrees to that so that it matches up with the 2nd set screw on the hub.

The key way starts about 3/16 in from the end of the axle so the hub sits in a minor amount more and the key is captured so it can never work its way out if the setscrew fails.

 

I feel I have improved upon the original design/assembly.

 

I reused the original set screws. The flats that are on the end of the used set screws are an advantage in my mind. They have a larger area to resist spinning/movement as opposed to a small area of the sharp end of a fresh cup.

 

The method of putting a set screw on the axle alone is a poor setup. It has 2 flaws. One big flaw that the set screw only touches or pushes on the axle in 2 small spots at the crown of the axle. This gives 2 small spots on the axle to hold and resist spinning as opposed to a flat with a large surface to seat on with a flat that makes it very hard, almost impossible to spin the hub on the axle even without a key. And secondly it mars the axle making it harder to get off.

 

So tomorrow I'm going to fire up the chipper and make a couple of loads of chips and give it a test.

 

I have never heard of set screws as wear items. Of course I have very rarely seen assemblies like Wheel Horses hub/axle setup. I was taught never to put a set screw on a shaft without a flat. Of course I worked on custom machined assemblies, not a mass produced item. The risk/reward of a cheaper assembly like woodruff keys and no flats for set screws is not worth the risk of failure. 

 

Just my .02.

 

 

 

The idea of the cup shaped end on the set screw is that it digs in to the woodruff key.  A flat end can begin to work side to side on the key more easily.

Edited by pfrederi

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MrOiluj52

Since these are not to far warn, 0 to .004 ish, and the center area is okay, I think I am going to try Loctite 660.

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