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Phil902

C-195 Project

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Phil902

At a house party last weekend, saw a sad looking horse in the bushes beside the back yard. Mentioned it to the homeowner, who said he bought it at a farm sale around 12 years ago. He used it until the deck on the C-195 self-destructed about 8 years ago. It was running poorly, and he had just bought a full size tractor/loader, and a zero turn mower, so he stuck the WH in a corner of the garage. Then he needed room for another car, so it went to the edge of the yard about 5 years ago,  intending to sell it. Never got around to it. Then he said the magic words: "Want it? Take it." I picked it up last night. It's rough. It was repowered by the original (?) owner, with a Kohler 18 magnum.  Engine seems seized, but I can see a nest under the tins. First move next weekend will be to clear that and see what impact it has on the engine, if any. I'll be closing the camp in a few weeks, so I won't be doing much to this one until Spring. If the nest isn't the seizure problem, I plan on loading the cylinders with ATF/acetone 50/50, and letting them cook over the winter. It's missing the air cleaner cover, the right side belt cover, and the rear PTO parts. The PO doesn't remember if PTO parts and side cover were on it when he got it, or not. The floor and dash plates were off it and under the hood when I picked it up. I'm going back next weekend to root around in the brush to see if anything got buried in the leaf debris. 

 

The biggest concern I have is that the tractor rolls easily. When I asked the PO if the Hydro was disengaged, I got a blank stare. He asked me what I meant. He told me that he had to push it with the Kubota because " it wouldn't roll in neutral" . I hope the tranny isn't completely shot.

 

Here are the ID numbers for the WH and the engine: 

WH: ID # : 19KE01-24426

                  2182 (appears below the ID number)

 

Kohler: 

Model: M18S

?????: 24543 (Sticker is behind muffler shield; couldn't read what this number designates)

Serial: 1618805556 

 

I got my C-161 running with help from here, but that was a piece of cake compared to this. I've never attempted anything potentially this extensive. Comments and suggestions appreciated.

 

 

C-195 Trailer.jpg

C-195 Rear View  2.jpg

C-195 Rear view.png

C-195 Right Side 2.jpg

C-195 Dash Plate 2.jpg

C-195 Air Cleaner Base.jpg

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ebinmaine
3 hours ago, Phil902 said:

I've never attempted anything potentially this extensive

Trina and I got our first Horse 3 or 4 years ago.

Until then each of us had only basic and limited knowledge of tractors or other small equipment.

We've now completed 2 frame off restorations and mechanically rebuilt 3 others.

 

Don't sweat it. Have fun. Dive in. Ask lots and lots of questions.

You'll figure it out 1 little issue at a time.

 

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953 nut
4 hours ago, Phil902 said:

The biggest concern I have is that the tractor rolls easily. When I asked the PO if the Hydro was disengaged, I got a blank stare. He asked me what I meant. He told me that he had to push it with the Kubota because " it wouldn't roll in neutral" . I hope the tranny isn't completely shot.

Nice Find!   :woohoo:  That is a 1982 model with an Eaton 1100 transmission. They will roll without any harm to the transmission. Considering how long it has been sting the oil has probably all drained to the pan anyway.

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Phil902
1 hour ago, ebinmaine said:

Trina and I got our first Horse 3 or 4 years ago.

Until then each of us had only basic and limited knowledge of tractors or other small equipment.

We've now completed 2 frame off restorations and mechanically rebuilt 3 others.

 

Don't sweat it. Have fun. Dive in. Ask lots and lots of questions.

You'll figure it out 1 little issue at a time.

 

Thanks, EB. I'm pretty sure I can guarantee the questions!

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Phil902
34 minutes ago, gwest_ca said:

Look through all of these as they are in no particular order

https://www.wheelhorseforum.com/search/?&q="01-19ke01"&type=downloads_file&search_and_or=or

 

Garry

Thanks Garry. I looked through some of them last night and again after I posted today. I saw the listing of some serial numbers, and posted mine since I didn't see it included in any of the ones I reviewed. I think from the downloads I figured out the build date for mine was July 1, 1982. Those downloads were of great help in getting the C-161 mobile, so thanks for all of them. 

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Phil902
41 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

Nice Find!   :woohoo:  That is a 1982 model with an Eaton 1100 transmission. They will roll without any harm to the transmission. Considering how long it has been sting the oil has probably all drained to the pan anyway.

Thanks, 953. ( I don't feel I know you well enough to call you just  "nut" ) . That's great news, and a big load off my mind. The suspense until I get it powered up next season might have left me broken and cowering, before the work has a chance to ! 

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SylvanLakeWH

:text-welcomeconfetti:

 

Love the Black Hoods!

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Phil902
23 hours ago, SylvanLakeWH said:

:text-welcomeconfetti:

 

Love the Black Hoods!

Me too also, And THIS one is steel !

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pullstart

Can’t beat the price!  I’d pull the spark plugs and shoot some air in there first to see if any debris comes flying out the intake.  It looks like plenty of evidence of mice in the air cleaner and I know those suckers can get through some pretty small holes.  No telling what they stashed inside the engine too!

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Phil902
5 hours ago, pullstart said:

Can’t beat the price!  I’d pull the spark plugs and shoot some air in there first to see if any debris comes flying out the intake.  It looks like plenty of evidence of mice in the air cleaner and I know those suckers can get through some pretty small holes.  No telling what they stashed inside the engine too!

 

Thanks. I was planning on vacuuming out the carb, which is packed with lint and acorn shell debris, and the remaining hoses and their holes. They probably have debris in them either by accident or on critter-purpose. I hadn't thought of first blowing air back through the spark plug holes, but I will now. I love this forum. I'm going to cover/plug the carb and the air openings until I get to them in the Spring. It may help prevent/reduce further intrusions and/or damage. 

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pullstart

I actually thought of it’s positive effects as I was typing it :handgestures-thumbupright:

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Phil902

Okay.... after a hiatus, I’ve been able to return to our cottage where the C- 195 spent the winter, spring, and half of summer. Who’d a thunk it? When last I saw it, the motor was locked up, and the intake a food pantry for various rodents. I cleaned it out, and “winterized it” with a 50/50 mix of acetone and ATF in each spark plug hole. 
 

Two weeks ago, I took a breaker bar and began “bumping” the flywheel in each direction. I began to gain on it until I could move it 3/4 of a turn in each direction. I poured some Kroil in each cylinder and let it sit for a day. A few bumps in the right direction broke it free. I can now easily rotate it by hand. 
 

I gave the carb and intake a sonic bath. The carb bowl contained what felt like sand. ( It came to me w/o an air filter, and missing the air cleaner cover.) I drained the oil and put a new oil filter on it. Oil level was full, no water, no rainbows, and no evidence of grit or metal. I dragged a magnet through it to be sure. Rather than reinstalling the carb and intake, I decided to start the next phase by trying to get it to just turn over.
 

Wellll..... the wiring is a nightmare. All safety switches are bypassed. There are cut coiled and capped wires, including one onto the ammeter,as well as splices I don’t understand. 
To complicate matters further, the original engine was swapped out two owners ago, and a Koehler magnum 18 installed, with a magneto ignition. 
 

I want to redo all the wiring. I’ve ordered the 103991 ignition switch. The current 😉 switch has limited continuity, and none with start post. There is also evidence of small scorch marks in the center, and one side. The key turns, but won’t come out. I found some wiring diagrams here, for early 80’s Horses, but they are for points. Suggestions gratefully received.
 

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953 nut

The 418-C wiring should work well for you.

 

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Phil902

Thanks 953. They should be a big help.

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RandyLittrell
On 10/6/2019 at 8:04 PM, Phil902 said:

Thanks, 953. ( I don't feel I know you well enough to call you just  "nut" ) . That's great news, and a big load off my mind. The suspense until I get it powered up next season might have left me broken and cowering, before the work has a chance to ! 

 

I think everybody here is a nut, but he is just proud enough to put it in his handle!!

 

 

 

Randy

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Bill D

Try the wiring diagram for a GT1142.  It's about as simple as you can get.  Just wire the lights to the A terminal on your ignition switch.  That should be the only change you would have to make.  Bill

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gwest_ca

Just a thought.

If the original C-195 wiring was good the addition of a relay to control the magneto ignition is all that would be required.

This would not require a change to the safety switch wiring that controls the ignition.

 

Good luck with the way you go about this.

 

Garry

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Phil902
6 hours ago, Bill D said:

Try the wiring diagram for a GT1142.  It's about as simple as you can get.  Just wire the lights to the A terminal on your ignition switch.  That should be the only change you would have to make.  Bill

 

1 hour ago, gwest_ca said:

Just a thought.

If the original C-195 wiring was good the addition of a relay to control the magneto ignition is all that would be required.

This would not require a change to the safety switch wiring that control the ignition.

 

Good luck with the way you go about this.

 

Garry

Thanks guys... I’m starting to think the light at the end of the tunnel is no longer a train.... at least for this portion of the trip 🤷🏼‍♂️

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Phil902

I’m back with a progress report, and once again seeking guidance. With the help of wiring diagrams from 953 nut, Bill D, and the service manual for a Magnum 18 I found here, I got the motor to run. I did it in steps, one of which was to put a squirt of 30 weight in each cylinder before I cranked it without plugs the first time. I then did a compression test. 90 for the front cylinder, 75 for the rear. I started it on an auxiliary tank, and it fired right up, running better then I expected. I haven’t dialed the carb in yet, and my Chinese tach shows 3100 + from each cylinder at operating speed. (belt is disconnected). The breather that goes to the air cleaner case is spitting oil. I’m guessing a stuck valve, as after the “wake up” smoke, there has been no more smoking.  The motor has probably run a total of 15 minutes to this point. I did another compression test today. 70 in each cylinder.

 

Now, before I mess with the motor any further, I’d like to find out where I stand with the transmission. The attached photos show layers of oil grime on the rear end, and on the frame under the oil filter. Also, there’s a drip stain in the dirt under the axle on the right side. The dip stick shows nothing but a drop at the very end. I’m thinking I’ll pressure wash the grime off, fill  it up, see if it goes, and see where oil leaks out. 


Thoughts greatly appreciated.

54EF7616-E61B-4436-A3DA-AF5FB2DC42DE.jpeg

8A8ADABB-9C31-48DC-BB8B-5A871B424A43.jpeg

D0702171-1E9C-48AC-80A6-2C0F39D56FC8.jpeg

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953 nut
10 hours ago, Phil902 said:

The breather that goes to the air cleaner case is spitting oil.

Is the oil level too high? I had a KT-17 on a parts tractor that did that and once the oil level das drained down to the correct amount the spiting stopped.

10 hours ago, Phil902 said:

The dip stick shows nothing but a drop at the very end. I’m thinking I’ll pressure wash the grime off, fill  it up, see if it goes, and see where oil leaks out.

I would add a little 10 W 30 to get it onto the dip stick, put the belt on and see what you have. If it drives well then you may just need to clean it up and add new seals.

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Bill D

Before you go to crazy with that engine I would try to determine what spec number it is.  From what I have read on here most Kohler twins don't have thrust bearings to handle the side loading from the PTO.  An electric clutch may be in your future.  Also, 75 psi is a little low.  Was the throttle wide open while checking compression?  Bill

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Phil902

Thanks Bill. The throttle was wide open as far as the lever goes, with no air filter assembly in place; it only has a base. I haven’t dialed full throttle/idle in yet. 

The tractor came without any attachments, aside from the mule. It had a big deck when the PO acquired it, as well as a 3 point hitch. The deck rusted out, and I think the 3 point hitch might have run away in fear. 🙂 I took it on as a fun challenge, to save it, and to annoy my wife. I have a C- 161 that gets used to haul leaves, brush, and stove pellets . I don't see this one doing much more. 
 

The spec number is 24543. What does it mean? 
 

Interestingly, in cleaning the rear end of oil and grime, I uncovered the hydro filter. It’s a Wheel Horse branded filter. I know the immediate PO would not have gone looking for one. That would put this one at least 23 years old, because that’s when the IPO purchased the Horse. It’s possible this is the original filter. I think I’ll change it before I fill the hydro.

 

 

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Phil902
7 hours ago, 953 nut said:

Is the oil level too high? I had a KT-17 on a parts tractor that did that and once the oil level das drained down to the correct amount the spiting stopped.

I would add a little 10 W 30 to get it onto the dip stick, put the belt on and see what you have. If it drives well then you may just need to clean it up and add new seals.


 

Yup. I looked this AM and it’s above the F itself. I’ll get after it this weekend and see if that corrects it. Wouldn’t a valve stuck enough to allow blow by result in lower compression than 70 psi?

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gwest_ca

Kohler: 

Model: M18S

?????: 24543 (Sticker is behind muffler shield; couldn't read what this number designates)

Serial: 1618805556 - the 16 tells us Kohler made the engine in 1986.

 

The spec number identifies how the engine was built using what parts to meet the buyers needs.

https://www.partstree.com/models/m18-24543-kohler-magnum-engine-made-for-grainger-18hp-13-4kw/

 

 

Garry

 

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