Any Idea Why My C-160 Starts Like This???

[WildmanC120 613]

I bought this last year and it has always done this.  it seems to kick back when you go to start it.  This engine runs very strong, no smoke or anything.  Looking around the engine it shows a few signs that it was rebuilt not too long ago or at the very least taken apart.  I'm curious if the compression release is not working/disabled or the timing is off.  What do you think???

 

C-160 Starting Issue

[ebinmaine 72,740]

I can't open the video from my little phone but I'm going to vote for timing issue by the way you described it.

 

[rjg854 12,216]

I'm thinking something to do with not getting a good draw from the fuel system 

[JoeM 8,354]

It could be something as simple as a bad starter, or solenoid. Looks like a hesitation when going into compression stroke. One question is if you jump the solenoid does it still hesitate on compression stroke.

I sold one of these to RJ Hammer and I think it was doing the same, might want to look at his restore thread.

Also, you could unplug the coil wire and crank it to help rule out timing.

 

Edited September 26, 2019 by OILUJ52

[WHX?? 51,784]

My vote is the timing... firing too soon. Very hard on the rod from my way of thinking. Refresh my memory what ignition does it have?

Side note possible valve timing issue? PO got a cam gear off a tooth?

Edited September 26, 2019 by WHX24

[The Tuul Crib 7,339]

How about points and condenser?

[Stepney 2,354]

I cant get the video open. But I have an ongoing war with my 1968 Electro 12, powered by a C160 engine. Mine is so violent I've sheared the shaft on the starter a time or 2. For a while I thought I had it nailed down as a faulty key switch. It would break connection to the coil at random, firing the plug wherever the engine happened to be .. only when cranking. You could rope start it just fine. 

I've never found the issue. Even kicks back with the rope though sometimes. Or if bypassing the key .. I've had 2 16's and they never seemed to be 'quite right' compared to my other K-engines. 

[ZXT 2,401]

I have a K341 in a Cub Cadet 1650 that does similar, except much more severe. 

 

Is yours kicking back because you let off of the key or does it do it regardless? Mine cranks extremely hard, and if I have an extremely hot battery it can sometimes get it to overcome the compression stroke and get it started. Otherwise, it will crank on to the compression stroke and then stop. I believe I've read that whatever triggers the ACR on the camshaft can break off and cause this issue.

 

I've been procrastinating pulling the thing apart but that's what I suspect I will find once I do. The engine also shakes rather violently when running. I know it was apart when my grandfather bought it and he put it back together with the parts the PO had acquired. I think it wound up with a K301 crank in it, which would have the wrong balance.

[Stormin 9,985]

 My guess is timing too advanced.

[Racinbob 11,938]

I'm with the timing thing. In my opinion it's not severe enough to be anything else. Make sure your points are gapped properly. Better yet, static time the engine. 

[oldlineman 1,537]

[WildmanC120 613]

12 hours ago, ZXT said:

I have a K341 in a Cub Cadet 1650 that does similar, except much more severe. 

 

Is yours kicking back because you let off of the key or does it do it regardless? Mine cranks extremely hard, and if I have an extremely hot battery it can sometimes get it to overcome the compression stroke and get it started. Otherwise, it will crank on to the compression stroke and then stop. I believe I've read that whatever triggers the ACR on the camshaft can break off and cause this issue.

 

I've been procrastinating pulling the thing apart but that's what I suspect I will find once I do. The engine also shakes rather violently when running. I know it was apart when my grandfather bought it and he put it back together with the parts the PO had acquired. I think it wound up with a K301 crank in it, which would have the wrong balance.

 

I let off the Key as soon as it kicks back.  I would seriously hate to pull this apart since it does run so well once it starts.  I depend on this tractor and my C-161 for all the tasks around here. 

[WildmanC120 613]

Thank you everyone else for the replies.  I will unplug the plug wire and crank it and see whats up.

[WildmanC120 613]

OK...Here is a video of it turning over with the plug disconnected.  As you can see a few times it comes up against the compression and has a hard time overcoming it.  Once I plug the plug back in it, it starts to kick back again. 

 

C-160 Turning over with plug disconnected

[953 nut 60,086]

 

9 hours ago, Racinbob said:

I'm with the timing thing. In my opinion it's not severe enough to be anything else. Make sure your points are gapped properly. Better yet, static time the engine. 

21 hours ago, WildmanC120 said:

the timing is off.

 

[Digger 66 3,488]

Is the decompressor  disabled / bypassed ?

[WildmanC120 613]

1 hour ago, 953 nut said:

 

 

 

Thanks. I'll have to try the timing and see what happens. 

[WildmanC120 613]

3 minutes ago, Digger 66 said:

Is the decompressor  disabled / bypassed ?

No idea.  Do not know how to check either. 

[Digger 66 3,488]

Just now, WildmanC120 said:

No idea.  Do not know how to check either. 

 

I just did a little reading as I'm no expert on the ins & outs of these Kohlers but it seems the exhaust valve being out of adjustment a smidge can cause your symptom .

[WildmanC120 613]

Ok so something else I forgot to mention.  This tractor backfires out the muffler when you shut it down.  Of the idle is too low or you don't let it run for a good 30 seconds before you turn it off it will backfire from the exhaust.  

[Tuneup 1,452]

I think that backfire is not uncommon. My 301 does it if I don't idle it for a while before shut-off. I do run her a little on the rich side to keep her cool...shut it down last with full choke from a short idle and she sent a 6" flame so that appeals to the teen in me - what there is left of it. No BANG though and that's good for the muffler.

If the ACR isn't working, I'd be surprised if the starter could get past it. You should be able to turn it by hand fairly easily as a check. The 3HP Briggs I have sitting in the garage can't have 10 hours on it ($15 at a garage sale and original plug with copper overspray) and the compression is very strong. I imagine these K series full comp on pull would be bears for a starter. Check your valve clearances, just to be sure, and get that out of the way. Oh, the late Briggs machines, at least my '99, need frequent valve adjustment. They get so slack that the decomp won't work and the starter cannot get past it. Even pulling is a bear. '99 Snapper 11 HP.

[Burnerman 759]

I would pull the cylinder head. You could then check for carbon buildup (which could cause a backfire and increase compression) and verify the ACR is operating correctly. If all is good you can set the point gap at .018 at true TDC as observed by exposed piston. 

 The ACR system is very simple but it can break. 

 

[953 nut 60,086]

To find TDC on a Kohler you can observe the timing marks on the flywheel or look at the crankshaft key-way. When the key-way is at the top the piston is at the top.

[WildmanC120 613]

Ok, finally had a couple minutes and the will to look at this further. Decided the easiest thing to do was check points gap. I dug around for about 45 minutes until I finally found my feeler gauge.  Best I could do with it was .19 so I set it for that and stuck it in the gap to find it was bigger.  Currently I have the gap set for that .19 and she sure is much better. I also cleaned the points as they were pretty oxidized.  Thing seems to run like a champ now and virtually no kickback. 

 

Thanks fellas.