265H will not crank! Could the NMIR module be the culprit?

[Ks265H 1]

Hello Folks! I have been reading through this site for quite some time and it has been an enormous help. Thank you to all!

 

I have a 265h (mod# 72050) year 2000, with a Kohler CV15s engine.

 

I can not get it to crank when turning the key. I have gone through all safety switches, wires and grounds. The original NMIR switch (“no mow in reverse”) was not testing properly whether energized or not, so I ordered a new one. I popped it in and STILL NOTHING. I tested the new module with my multimeter and I feel I am not getting the proper readings. So they may have sent me a faulty module. 

 

So I guess my first question would be if this brand new module is broken, would this cause my engine not to crank over? 

 

When I turn the key,  I do get clicking in both of the relays.

With the testing of the new NMIR switch, my battery alone is reading 12.48 volts. I use this same battery to energize the switch and the meter shows only 11.00 volts going through it. The 260 Series Service Manuel says voltage should be the same as battery. Below I included screenshots of the electric portion of the service manual. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!

 

 

 

 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,495]

The only thing I see common to the NMR module and the starter safety system is the grounds.

 

Operator in seat, brake on and transmission in neutral

Using the normal start procedure what voltage do you have at the small orange wire on the solenoid with the key in the START position?

Using the normal start procedure what voltage do you have at the small green wire on the solenoid with the key in the START position?

 

Garry

[953 nut 51,655]

I do not own this model, but electrical problems are usually solved by cleaning and tightening ALL electrical connections including grounds. The fact that you hear clicking leads me to think that is all that is needed.

[Ks265H 1]

I am showing less than 1 volt in both the green and orange wires on the solenoid when I turn the key to start 

[Ks265H 1]

However, I did get continuity on both as I turned the key. Not sure if that is of any good information or not. 

Today’s project was going to be checking all wires and grounds all over again anyhow. I may have missed something and have a bad ground somewhere.

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,495]

15 minutes ago, Ks265H said:

However, I did get continuity on both as I turned the key.

Don't know what you mean.

If you have battery voltage on both the orange and green with the key in the START position the kill relay is not grounding the green wire for some reason. Could be the relay or the relay ground is bad.

If you get battery voltage on the orange and 0 volts on the green the starter solenoid should close and power the starter motor if the solenoid is any good.

 

Garry

[Ks265H 1]

On my multimeter the 12 V mark is next to the continuity alarm. At first I had it set to measuring continuity instead of voltage. Noticed that separately testing the green and orange wires, both will sound off the continuity alarm.  I am definitely not an electrician or a mechanic by trade either. I’ve been doing a lot of poking around trying to figure out what I am dealing with here. 

 Voltage of orange wire is .011 and voltage of green wire shows exactly the same 0.011. 

 

I do have extra relays on hand and they all test out that they are working properly. I put a new relay in there just for the heck of it. I get the same readings. How should I test the grounding of the relay? 

 

And  for your help and input!

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,495]

You need battery voltage in the orange wire so go back to the interlock relay. In START it should click and pass battery voltage to the orange wire that goes to the solenoid

If that does not happen

Follow the orange to the neutral switch. It should have voltage with the transmission in neutral and the key in the RUN position.

 

The 10 amp fuse is OK? Those wires are pink and have power in both RUN and START key positions.

 

Garry

 

[Ks265H 1]

Thank you Garry! An FYI, I do have the demystification guide for my tractor. I did find it via Red Square! 

10 amp fuse with the pink wires is solid. I’m assuming that 0.011 V DOES NOT constitute as proper voltage going to the orange wire on the solenoid. lol!  I am about to start tracing orange wire through to the neutral switch and so on. I was going through the kill relay wires. Before I read your last reply, I had already started blogging about it below 

••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

 

 I have both the relays in place.  When probing the wires from the relay harness, I am getting continuity in the kill relay between the white and black wires while key is OFF. Turn key ON and it brakes continuity.

 

It is the opposite between the green and black wires. No continuity between green and black when key is OFF, then continuity between green and black when key is ON.  

 

I can see on the schematic the green wire should make contact with ground (black wire) when key is in start. I even moved the multimeter lead to different grounds just to be sure. Whether it’s grounded to the battery or the chassis or the black wire itself, the test comes up with the same results. 

 

 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,495]

When you place the test leads across the battery posts what voltage reading do you get?

 

Garry

[Ks265H 1]

12.28 volts

1 hour ago, gwest_ca said:

When you place the test leads across the battery posts what voltage reading do you get?

 

Garry

I am getting 12.38 volts across the battery terminals.

As I follow the wires through the starter motor circuit with the ignition in the RUN position I get the following voltage readings: 

•neutral switch 12.18 volts

•30, 25 & 10 amp fuse 12.28

• PTO 12.2 

• break switch 12.2

• seat switch 12.24

•tan wire from seat switch to interlock relay 12.24

• orange wire in interlock relay = NOTHING. 0 volts 

 

 I had to remove the seat and the gas tank to get to the neutral switch. I was having a hard time getting a good reading through the seat switch at that point. I ran a little jumper wire through the seat switch. Is this a good way to bypass the seat switch so everything checks out properly?

 

 

 

 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,495]

•tan wire from seat switch to interlock relay 12.24 -0 ----------This is good. When the key is turned to the RUN position do you loose the 12.24 volts in the tan wire?

Asked the wrong question.

Should be - When the key is turned to the START position do you loose the 12.24 volts in the tan wire?

Garry

[Ks265H 1]

Yes I loose the 12 volts when I turn to start

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,495]

With the key in RUN position

Check voltage at pto switch with pto switch OFF in this order. That is the path the current takes.

Pink, blues and grey should have battery voltage.

 

Now try them again with the key in the START position. Should be same results as above.

 

Garry

[Ks265H 1]

This is great stuff Garry! Would not have figured out this testing on my own.

 

pink wire in Run=12.22

start= 12.20

 

Blue in Run =12.21

start=12.16 

 

Grey in Run = 12.17

start=12.17

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,495]

These can be done with the key in the RUN position.

Grey wire goes to brake switch. Switch closed (brake on) sends voltage to the violet wire.

 

Violet wire goes to 1/2 of the neutral switch.Transmission in neutral sends voltage to the orange wire on switch.

 

Orange wire goes to seat switch. With operator in seat the seat switch sends voltage to the tan wire you checked before and had 0 volts. This series of components should give you battery voltage in the tan wire.

 

I suspect your problem is somewhere in here.

[Ks265H 1]

Brake switch checks out same volts between Run and Start just like the PTO.  Passed up the neutral switch because it’s not easy to get to, I went straight to the seat switch. Voltage drops to zero when turning to start. I am going to pull the harness off of the neutral switch and start looking, cleaning and testing.  I do have the seat switch jumpered. Will this still give a good reading because the seat AND gas tank need to be lifted to get to and test the neutral switch?

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,495]

This wiring we are tracing is powered by the I (eye) terminal on the ignition switch. That circuit should be alive in both RUN and START.

 

Voltage drops to zero when turning to start

When that happens go back and confirm the grey wire off the pto switch still has battery voltage in START

It is possible the ignition switch is failing by not supplying battery voltage in both RUN and START positions to the (I) terminal.

 

Garry

[Ks265H 1]

I think my ignition switch is ok. At first it was not testing properly against the 260 Series Manual (fig 226)  I noticed when testing, the B terminal was twisted and the base and was touching the S terminal. I straightened it out and it is now testing correct. I may have twisted the contacts with my meter leads. 

 

 A little backstory on the tractor.... I had it at a mechanic in early spring. They had it for two months! and could not figure out what was wrong with it.  They did put a new ignition switch in it. The new switch is not OEM. It looks very generic. Their conclusion was that I needed a whole new wiring harness that would cost me $300 for the part and $300 for the labor. I said “ NO THANK YOU!!” and brought it home. It actually didn’t cost me a thing. I could tell they just wanted it off of their hands and they never charged me for labor or the new ignition switch.  

 

This is the first time I have tested this new ignition switch. As I plug it back into the harness,  terminal B seems to stay straight. I don’t feel that it was contacting the S terminal in the harness. 

 

 As for the previous testing of voltage and voltage drops, I did get 12.28 V of battery power through the pink wire [ terminal I (eye)] at the ignition switch (testing both RUN and START). I started voltage testing at that point and made my way towards the solenoid following the Starting Circuit Diagram. Voltage at grey wire in PTO still shows over 12V in both START and RUN.

Somewhere at the seat switch or neutral switch I am losing the battery voltage. I will do some more investigating around those points. 

 

I do not feel that this tractor needs a whole new wiring harness! I have been exploring all of the wires. Nothing is chewed, exposed, cut, overly corroded, etc! There may still be loose or dirty wires not making contact and I have overlooked it. 

 

 

[Ks265H 1]

On 9/24/2019 at 6:47 PM, gwest_ca said:

These can be done with the key in the RUN position.

Grey wire goes to brake switch. Switch closed (brake on) sends voltage to the violet wire.

 

Violet wire goes to 1/2 of the neutral switch.Transmission in neutral sends voltage to the orange wire on switch.

 

Orange wire goes to seat switch. With operator in seat the seat switch sends voltage to the tan wire you checked before and had 0 volts. This series of components should give you battery voltage in the tan wire.

 

I suspect your problem is somewhere in here.

I finally found a broken wire! The orange wire going to the seat switch is broke.  In the START position I would lose the 12 V at the seat switch. The wire must’ve been hanging by a thread. I pulled it loose while moving them around.   The broken wire was not visible because of the protective tubing.  I twisted them together and I finally got the engine to turn over when I turn the key! I truly appreciate your help in pinpointing this!

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,495]

Glad you found it.

The schematics including the NMIR model are not simple.  Part your hair down the center and no outside distractions required.

 

Garry