Rust removal

[AMC RULES 36,941]

You said your salt solution worked in just two hours...

how does the soda solution compare?

[The Tuul Crib 7,332]

32 minutes ago, AMC RULES said:

You said your salt solution worked in just two hours...

how does the soda solution compare?

 Actually the salt solution worked in around 10 to 12 hours. That's the amount of time which I let it set.  Now with the washing soda it seems to be a little quicker and a lot less foam on top of the water.  And using a wire wheel after pulling it from the solution is effortless. Even can clean it off with a pressure washer .

[stevasaurus 22,229]

This is what you guys want to read.  and Like Paul said...you can spread this in your shrubs.  As long as you only do ferrous metal.  No copper, aluminum.  I can post some before and after and during pictures if need be.

 

http://www.oldengine.org/members/orrin/rustdemo.htm

[The Tuul Crib 7,332]

 I don't have before pictures on this particular cleaning but here is during tomorrow I'll pull it out and get it after picture 

[formariz 11,849]

It will work. Next time if you want go heavier on the washing soda. I also use a large battery in conjunction with charger increasing voltage. For faster cooking I use charger on engine starting mode.(without battery)

You can also increase anode surface area to make it faster.

Edited January 6, 2019 by formariz

[oliver2-44 8,835]

I use Swimming Pool Ph+. It also is sodium carbonate based. Works great. Washing soda is hard to find around here.  

It hasn't been mentioned, you need to use a manual battery charger, or If you have one of the newer “automatic” chargers you must put a battery in the circuit to trick it to work. 

[The Tuul Crib 7,332]

 OK I pulled it out of the solution this morning that being the washing soda it sat in it for around 15 hours. Not sure if you can tell by the picture but I took the wire wheel and it was effortless to clean the metal . No rust no paint! 

[AMC RULES 36,941]

  Looks awesome...

can we see the charger you're using too?  

 

Which works best...

salt, or the soda?  

[The Tuul Crib 7,332]

 It's hard to tell lmo which works better . Makes sense that salt would be a little harder on the metal. I think from now on tho I will probably use washing soda, and as for the charger here it is!  Nothing special but it is 27 years old  and still works great! 

 

[ztnoo 2,298]

On 12/31/2018 at 8:26 PM, 953 nut said:

On 12/31/2018 at 3:25 PM, jebbear said:

Does anyone know where to find the gallon jugs of phosphoric acid locally these days?

You can find it at Ace hardware, Lowe's or HD, look in the paint section.

 

I learned of a product from Tractor Supply Company called "milkstone remover" which is used to sanitize dairy processing equipment.

I gleaned my info from my membership in the Japanese Vintage Motorcycle Club, where many guys restore vintage bikes in much the same way older tractor are restored here.

One of the major problems guys have is dealing with internally rusted gasoline tanks cause by old gas as well as newer ethanol gas which attracts moisture, particularly in partially filled tanks.

I learned a mix of a solution of 1 part milkstone to 8 parts water, you can pretty quickly dissolve the worst of rust in a gas tank.

The first time I used the process, I monitored it for about eight hours, emptied the tank and inspected it. I determined I should let it soak longer and I ended up leaving it in for 24 hours.

I then emptied the tank, inspected the result, determined I was satisfied, thoroughly hosed the tank out with water, and the promptly used my shop tank in the blow mode flowing air into the filler neck with the tank out in the sunlight until it was completely dry.

Voila, a newly refreshed tank which is serviceable again.

No voltage was used whatsoever. This was merely a leave the object in place in the solution technique.

The beautiful part about his process was it was completely harmless to the painted tank exterior, it was harmless to skin in the solution ratio I utilized, and you can dump it in the yard then finished. This particularly makes it attractive to motorcycle restorers who wish to preserve the paint on an a tank that looks good on the exterior.

When you read the label contents, you'll see the primary active ingredient is phosphoric acid.

 

I'm curious as to opinions about using the electrolysis method with this solution, or even a stronger solution than my 1:8 ratio??? Opinions?

 

 

 

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/dairyland-sterosol-milkstone-remover-acid-rinse

Edited January 7, 2019 by ztnoo

[formariz 11,849]

Try it on the Start position.

[jebbear 377]

5 minutes ago, ztnoo said:

I'm curious as to opinions about using the electrolysis method with this solution

I have an OPINION and that is all that it is because I am far from an expert in this matter, but if I understand the electrolysis process correctly, the electrolyte solution is primarily there to conduct the electric flow between the anode and cathode. Not sure of the conductivity properties of phosphoric acid or if it is even suitable for that purpose. The salt water solution mentioned earlier would be an excellent conductor, but I would think that the salt would act negatively on the finished product (same as road salt on our cars). From what I have read, the sodium carbonate (washing soda) solution is one of the best conductors as well as one of the safest to handle. Sodium hydroxide (lye) would probably be the optimal solution since it would add to the de-greasing/paint removal to the process. I do believe that the use of a phosphoric acid treatment to the finished product would be a great idea based on my personal experience.

[jebbear 377]

6 minutes ago, formariz said:

Try it on the Start position.

I have found that the higher amperage setting used speeds up the process, and is also necessary as the size (volume) of your working tub increases. I never tired it, but have read where some guys use their old stick welders on higher amperage for their power supply.

[953 nut 51,520]

On 1/4/2019 at 10:28 PM, DennisThornton said:

Salt and MANY others will work well, but 2 common chemicals work better.  I think baking & washing soda are most often used and recommended but lye works even better.  But there are reasons why lye is called "caustic soda"! 

Maybe better to start with washing soda. 

If you use Caustic soda be sure there are no aluminum components. Years back I had a large dunk tank for paint stripping on auto parts that was filled with caustic soda (sodium-hydroxide) and water (25/75). I put a pair of front fenders into the tank and fired up the heater, came back about two hours later and pulled them out. What the heck, where did the head light buckets go? Turned out the headlight buckets were aluminum and the caustic had dissolved them.

[The Tuul Crib 7,332]

3 hours ago, jebbear said:

I have found that the higher amperage setting used speeds up the process, and is also necessary as the size (volume) of your working tub increases. I never tired it, but have read where some guys use their old stick welders on higher amperage for their power supply.

 I tried that today with my battery charger and Yep it did help the paint and rust just bubbled off .  It saves a lot of time doing it this way. 

[953 nut 51,520]

3 hours ago, jebbear said:

have read where some guys use their old stick welders on higher amperage for their power supply.

It would have to be a DC welder. Not too many of them kicking around in home shops.

[jebbear 377]

2 hours ago, 953 nut said:

It would have to be a DC welder.

Yep, absolutely! I forgot to mention that. Mine is an old Craftsman AC/DC Buzz box, I'll have to give it a try some day for the rust removal & see how it works. I might as well, because I never did learn how to use it CORRECTLY for welding anyway!

[The Tuul Crib 7,332]

 We had that type of welder growing up on the farm they were great to have around and easy to use. I built my first chopper  out of a minibike which at the time my welding wasn't the greatest but it broke in too , lol

[DennisThornton 4,769]

Richard, "953 nut" mentioned a valid warning, don't use lye/caustic soda and drop in aluminum parts!  Well, not for long anyway.  They will disappear! 

I'll add another warning.  Electrolysis rust removal works by the opposite means of plating, meaning it will "reverse plate" or remove plating.  Which could cause unwanted damage or perhaps real bad if what I've read is accurate that the chromium ions formed are not what you'd want in your drinking water.  Or garden.  Or elsewhere... 

Like most things, read up a bit and apply some caution.  I think we'll ventilated with washing soda and rust only is safe. 

[bc.gold 3,399]

2 hours ago, DennisThornton said:

Richard, "953 nut" mentioned a valid warning, don't use lye/caustic soda and drop in aluminum parts!  Well, not for long anyway.  They will disappear! 

I'll add another warning.  Electrolysis rust removal works by the opposite means of plating, meaning it will "reverse plate" or remove plating.  Which could cause unwanted damage or perhaps real bad if what I've read is accurate that the chromium ions formed are not what you'd want in your drinking water.  Or garden.  Or elsewhere... 

Like most things, read up a bit and apply some caution.  I think we'll ventilated with washing soda and rust only is safe. 

 

Some catalytic converters used are made from metal foils, each cat may contain as much as 3.5 grams of precious metals from the platinum family those your'e likely to find are palladium. platinum and rhodium/

 

I use a similar reverse electrolysis to undermine the metal from the precious metals wash coat but use a nickel sulfate based electrolyte the nickel from the foil is transferred to a staleness steel cathode. As this takes place the precious metals fall off as a black powder to the bottom of the cell.

 

When the electrolyte becomes to contaminated and needs changing I simply drop in a few pieces of scrap iron which promotes and ion exchange where the iron will go into solution dropping metals below itself out of solution as sludge. No longer a danger to the environment.

 

The electromotive series of metals and how sacrificial anodes protect your investment. If you want to get your moneys worth from your hot water tank replace the anode every few years.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 7, 2019 by bcgold

[bc.gold 3,399]

Electrolysis of sodium chloride ( table salt ) produces sodium chlorate a dangerous chemical if stored or handled improperly may self ignite or react with organic compounds violently.

 

Washing soda is safest to use for rust removal, if your unable to find it locally just spread out some baking soda on a cookie sheet and bake it in the oven at 300 degrees Fahrenheit. The heat will convert the baking soda into washing soda.

 

The bottom video, sodium chlorate as a rocket propellant short video watch to the end. You will definitely change your mind about using salt.

 

 

Edited January 7, 2019 by bcgold