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DBlackston

854 Delco Remy Starter Generator

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DBlackston

Hello all,

 

The starter generator on my 854 was weak when I purchased it. 

 

It died soon there after.

 

I took it off and attempted to take it apart, but have never worked on one and ran into an issue. 

 

I was attempting to remove the armature and could not get the armature out of the winding. It felt like it was hanging up on something and I did not want to break anything attempting to take it apart. 

 

I decided to blow it out as best I could as it was fairly dirty and reassemble it. Alot of carbon came out.

 

It ran great and much faster for a few times but quickly died again.

 

I have since bought a rebuild kit and plan on working on it again.

 

I have a few questions:

 

1) What do you think it was hung up on and how do I get it out?

 

2) What kind of cleaner don you recommend I use to clean the inside of the starter?

 

3) How do you install the new brushes. From what I have read you can't solder them as they are too large. What do you guys do?

 

Thanks in advance for any help!

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gwest_ca

Do you have the service manual on it?

Kohler 4-72 SM Section 07.1-7.6 Starter-generator & regulator HR.pdf
7 pages 3.64MB

 

Garry

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ebinmaine

:popcorn:

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squonk

Napa non-flammable brake cleaner #4700 or CRC Brake and electric motor cleaner.  I take all my stuff like that down the road to the Auto electric place for testing. You may have a swelled /out of round armature that would require turning or replacement. Also the armature may have ground itself into the coils. 

Edited by squonk
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The Tool Crib

You might check lsavetractors.com 

i think he has a video to walk you thru the 

rebuild steps.

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pfrederi

I take mine to a Starter generator repair place.  it costs more than a rebuild kit..but they stand behind their work.  Besides rebuild kits are usually bearings/brushes  What if it need a field coil...or armature?  If you can get them they are not cheap  a pro can get them cheaper.

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oliver2-44

What ever cleaner you use, test it on a very small area of the varnish insulation. some modern cleaners can soften/melt the old varnish. 

if you have some small areas where the varnish insulation is scraped off the wire use glyptal insulating varnish is the best to touch it us. However since most of us don't have glyptal at home, use some  poly-urethane varnish to touch it up.  many year ago at work I had a bran new 480v switchgear with some insulating paper wrapped buss bar that got scrape din shipping.  I didn't have time for the vendor to send replacement bar, so there engineer told me to go get some  poly urethane varnish to repair the buss.   

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DBlackston

This issue was fixed with new brushes, and one new bearing. Purchased by me, installed by a starter repair shop.

 

After watching them do it I would definetly do it myself next time.

 

It works great now!

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MikMacMike

In about a week Im going to be rewireing everything on the K301. Ive never had a proper charging system on it and it has points for ignition. I see there are a number of ignition systems and a number of different charging systems. Anyone know the srong and weak points to each system? Which 2 systems are the best?

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ebinmaine

Let me just say from the beginning I am my NO means an expert..

 

IMHO and from my experience:

 

On a K series Kohler Points ignition is the way to go. Simple. Long term service and reliability. Ease of repair and maintenance.

Keep a points ignition clean with a good strong coil and it's tough to beat.

 

A starter/generator will give you around 15 amps. The tractor running/charging needs 3 (I think).

That leaves you with 12 amps to install lights if so desired.

Go with LED lights and you won't even be close to that.

 

S/G starting has a very unique soft sound not having a set of teeth to engage. A lovely sound to our ears here on our acreage.

 

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953 nut

If you are rewiring a tractor that has a Starter/Generator then the mechanical voltage regulator for the S/G is probably the best/only option. The K301 that came with a S/G on a :wh: had no internal charging system.

This diagram should be helpful in understanding what each component does.

image.jpeg

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pfrederi
9 hours ago, MikMacMike said:

In about a week Im going to be rewireing everything on the K301. Ive never had a proper charging system on it and it has points for ignition. I see there are a number of ignition systems and a number of different charging systems. Anyone know the srong and weak points to each system? Which 2 systems are the best?

 

 

Points could be 1 of 2 systems.  Battery Ignition or magneto.  Wiring and ignition switch have to be different. Which do you have now??  Changing from one to another is more involved than just moving a couple wires.  Both work well and are reliable (except for dirty points).   I suppose fixing a failed battery system would be faster and cheaper than a failed magneto system (you have to pull the flywheel).  I would keep which ever yo have now.

 

Can shaped coil that feeds the spark plug = Battery system

Plug wire comes from under the engine shroud  magneto system

 

Starter/Charging  Stay with what ever you have now

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MikMacMike

I havnt had a working charging system on it in years, Ive always just kept the battery topped up. If im not mistaken I am pritty sure there is a stator under the flywheel. When I start working on the motor Ill know for sure. I did have a regular starter on it but the teeth are worn and its showing its age. Still rebuildable Id think. I do have a Genny starter too from an other old tracktor I could use too.I do have a few I think there called rectifiers not too sure? that I could also use. Im also pritty sure under the flywheel shrowed theres also a crank position sencor or pick up modual. Id like to not have to reset points but I definately want lots of charging amperage, Ill be running yes a number of LED lights to cut back on batter draw but once I weld up the cab theres going to be a defrost fan and heat plus for summer Ill prob run a cooling fan too even though Ill definately have the door or doors off.

I was looking at the scemadics there excellently laid out and thank you.

I still have some time to decide.......hmmmm desisions desisions LOL.

 

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MikMacMike
15 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

Let me just say from the beginning I am my NO means an expert..

 

IMHO and from my experience:

 

On a K series Kohler Points ignition is the way to go. Simple. Long term service and reliability. Ease of repair and maintenance.

Keep a points ignition clean with a good strong coil and it's tough to beat.

 

A starter/generator will give you around 15 amps. The tractor running/charging needs 3 (I think).

That leaves you with 12 amps to install lights if so desired.

Go with LED lights and you won't even be close to that.

 

S/G starting has a very unique soft sound not having a set of teeth to engage. A lovely sound to our ears here on our acreage.

 

I was wondering though, I see there is a shroud that covers the Genni/starter. What about the cooling air? It seems to be blocked off by it! I do like the idea of the quiet start as oposed to clunk pnininin.....lol.

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953 nut

If you would be so kind as to share a picture or two of the engine along with the spec number on the engine we could give a bit more input. As for running a heater in the cab you probably will exceed the charging system capacity of any Kohler engine if an electric heater of any size is used, A GM "one-wire" alternator with the built in voltage regulator attached to a second battery used for your accessories may be a good choice

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ebinmaine
9 hours ago, MikMacMike said:

I was wondering though, I see there is a shroud that covers the Genni/starter. What about the cooling air? It seems to be blocked off by it! I do like the idea of the quiet start as oposed to clunk pnininin.....lol.

 

1 hour ago, 953 nut said:

If you would be so kind as to share a picture or two of the engine

 

 

Your S/G belt shroud should have a hole in the large end. That's the air intake.

 

We're curious to see what you have...

 

 

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MikMacMike

Its a 69 to 70 something charger 10, the engines was a tecumse but now its the 12 hp Kohler K-301 I think??? I just baught a 8 speed and just finished fitting it in about 2 weeks ago. Right now Ive been tacking up a rear frame setup so as to move the gas tank and increase its size to I figured with the cubic inches in the cavity Ill have almost 6 gallons for fuel, it'll be a custom tank obviousely.....hopefully I can fab a good stainless steel one eventually.Here are a few pics of where Im at on it.

IMG_0203.JPG

IMG_0162.JPG

IMG_0180.JPG

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MikMacMike

Here is where I left off at 9:30 tonight. Oh darn I cant load any more.....was going to show where Im at now.

14 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

 

 

 

Your S/G belt shroud should have a hole in the large end. That's the air intake.

 

We're curious to see what you have...

 

 

 

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ebinmaine

Looks like quite an awesome build Mike.

When you get to load more I'll be looking forward to it...

If you only have the one pedal that does both brake and clutch your linkage can be a bit challenging to get lined up just right. That setup was originally on a 6 speed which is basically the same transmission but the brake drum is in a slightly different location.

It CAN be done.

I've done it on a 1267. I stopped that project because I like the C series with 2 brake pedals.

 

 

 

If you become a supporter you'll have unlimited photo capability and no outside ads.

 

 

Great job so far!!

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953 nut
7 hours ago, MikMacMike said:

69 to 70 something charger 10, the engines was a tecumse but now its the 12 hp Kohler K-301 I think???

Was this engine a running engine that you have the rest of the ignition parts for? It appears to be a trigger ignition system which is a great setup if you have all the parts.

:confusion-confused:        I went back to the first post on this thread and saw that you have hijacked the original post. That can confuse things a bit because I was under the impression that you were working on a 854 with a S/G.

Why don't you start a new topic where you are talking about your tractor and your situation only?

 

 

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MikMacMike
On 12/2/2019 at 6:33 AM, 953 nut said:

Was this engine a running engine that you have the rest of the ignition parts for? It appears to be a trigger ignition system which is a great setup if you have all the parts.

:confusion-confused:        I went back to the first post on this thread and saw that you have hijacked the original post. That can confuse things a bit because I was under the impression that you were working on a 854 with a S/G.

Why don't you start a new topic where you are talking about your tractor and your situation only?

 

 

Ops sorry about that.....Im really having troubles trying to follow the layout on here trying to find what Ive texted and what people have responded to, Ive not been on one of these sites much at all. But yes may be if I start a new branch it would be easier to follow....Thanks 953nut.

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