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SimonC

cranks when powered

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Hi,

 

wheel horse raider 10 1969-70 with a tecumseh 10hp

 

My battery was dead and I assumed it was because my regulator was still not replaced.

 

However as soon as I connected my booster pack on it, even without the key in the ignition, the engine started cranking.

 

I have replaced my switch (5 connectors).

 

From my research, it seems like the issue could be a stuck solenoid (or internally shorted).

 

I see that those are not very expensive, but I dont know what specs I should be looking at to buy.  Could any of you provide some data as to what I should look for as a replacement, assuming you agree that this is most likely the issue

 

thanks

 

Simon

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Lowes Home depot sell Garden tractor solenoid for 10-15 they will work.If it has 2 small terminal one of them may need to be grounded.  If only 1 Small terminal make sure the mounting basket has a clean connection to the tractor sheet metal.

Edited by pfrederi
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My first thought ... Maybe what Garry is thinking?. Did you replace the switch with the correct part number? You need one for a Magneto..

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behavior was happening before I replaced the switch, actually made me think it was the culprit as I had other issues with the switch.  The switch I installed is this one: https://www.stens.com/430-070-ignition-switch

 

I went to the local store and got a tractor and lawn solenoid (https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/mtd-replacement-tractor-solenoid-0607533p.html#srp), it is however quite a lot smaller than my current one.  attaching a picture of the sticker on it.  Just wondering if it'll be good enough.  The terminal size are also quite smaller on it.

 

thanks

 

Simon

20181113_130647.jpg

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Looks like you got the right ignition switch. So you should be okay there.

 

I'll let somebody with more expertise answer as to whether you could use that solenoid. I don't see any ratings for amperage on it.

 

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We aren't starting a 12 cylinder diesel here.  That solenoid will work just fine.

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1 minute ago, pfrederi said:

We aren't starting a 12 cylinder diesel here.  That solenoid will work just fine.

doh!, there goes my next planned upgrade... :)

 

thanks guys, I'll have to go source some nuts because everything from the old dont fit on the new, plus the new has flat connector for the small terminal instead of screwed in...

 

Simon

 

 

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actually, what gauge is recommended for the solenoid to the battery and to the starter ?  might be worth replacing them as the jacket is getting brittle.

 

thanks

 

Simon

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If the jacket of those wires is getting brittle, please do replace them!

 

6 gauge will be more than adequate.

 

if you have a big box type auto parts store in your neighborhood they will have inexpensive car battery wires that should work.

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6 ga is adequate 

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Make sure the body of the 430-070 5-terminal ignition switch is grounded to the chassis. That is what is required to shut the engine off.

The switch Wheel Horse used for most magneto ignitions is 103991 that has a 6th terminal that gets a ground wire to make sure the switch body is grounded. The other 5 terminals are identified the same as the 430-070. 

 

Garry

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well .. now I've redone pretty much all wiring, save for accessories for which I'm waiting to get proper lights.

 

engine cranks when I ask it to now (replaced both solenoid and switch).  However I've got no fire.  From what I read (and you guys can confirm), if I disconnect the wire coming from the flywheel (the 3rd lead from where the two AC ones are) it should allow me to eliminate wiring issues from the rest of my wiring, is that correct ? 

 

Nevertheless, when I do, still no spark at the plug.  

 

I just unscrewed the coil and put it back (without removing wires) and I managed to get some puffs of smoke when trying to restart (after charging the battery again).  

 

It's getting pretty cold down here, first winter with this tractor.  Wondering if the heat of my hands playing with it somehow did something.  Could it be a dead coil or should I look at something else first ?  Kind of desperate as it keeps snowing and the shovel is only keeping up with the bare minimum. 

 

thanks

 

Simon

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 Did it run before the solenoid switch issue???

 

When you say you loosened the coil do you mean the ignition module under the engine shroud?  if you loosened it up you have probably changed the air gap that will cause no spark.  If the air gap is correct it is likely one of two issues the ignition module is bad or the portion of the stator that feeds it is bad.

 

You are correct if you disconnect the kill wire you eliminate other wiring issues. Have you down loaded the manual??

 

 

techy1.JPG

techy2.JPG

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Just now, pfrederi said:

 

 

 Did it run before the solenoid switch issue???

 

When you say you loosened the coil do you mean the ignition module under the engine shroud?  if you loosened it up you have probably changed the air gap that will cause no spark.  If the air gap is correct it is likely one of two issues the ignition module is bad or the portion of the stator that feeds it is bad.

 

You are correct if you disconnect the kill wire you eliminate other wiring issues. Have you down loaded the manual??

 

 

 

 

before I unscrewed the ignition module, I had no spark, hence me trying to troubleshoot my way into things outside my comfort realm :)  And yes, the ignition module under the engine shroud (where the spark plug wire ends).

 

I have not downloaded the manual.  thank you for the pages.

 

so this morning after the battery being charged, I went to start, it ran for 5 seconds before dying again.  And following that, I am back to having no spark.

 

the two screws that holds the ignition module in place are not very adjustable, should they provide enough play nevertheless to properly adjust that air gap ? 

 

Could the cold outside contract metal enough that the gap becomes too big for the module to read the pins ? 

 

I'll do the ohms test as described.  Module seems very expensive, I hope it's something stupid as an adjustment.

 

thanks

 

Simon

 

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I doubt the cold would change the pin gap that much.  Yes modules are hard to find and pricey.  I never had a range of adjustment problem on the 3 i have played with.

 

Here is manual

 

 

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Just a reminder.

Do not allow any battery voltage to get to the ignition. That will release the magic smoke from the coil.

The ignition is self-powered and the single ignition wire just grounds the ignition to shut the engine off.

 

Garry

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Hi Simon,

how did you test the "No spark" issue? 

 Tried your inserted sparkplug ? 

If so replace the sparkplug for a test with a new one.

 

Engines, they stops running while they get warm, can caused by a defect sparkplug.

 

 

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spark plug is new, I simply tested by cranking with plug out of the engine block.  I'm not sure how else to test it without a proper tester.  However the other obvious sign that I can see so far is that whenever I crank, if I have a spark, I see the smoke coming out of the muffler.  

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Hi Simon,

even a new sparkplug can be defect, i allways try a simple Phase tester screwdriver with a glimer light inside,

clamped between Sparplugcap tip and ground you can see visually if any ignition occurs, if the ohm measurement seems ok.

you can this also buy as a tester, but i found the screwdriver is handier and mostly available in any household.

 

Even if the Timing is completley worse and even if the spark Voltage is weak because of too much gap or someting other issues, 

as long as you get High Voltage, a more or less lightly flash on the Glimmerlight in the screwdriver occurs.

Also the gap from sparkplug self is Correct? 

 

did you checked, if between connector M on you new Ignition Key and ground is no connection in Run or start position?

measure this without any connector directly on Keyswitch, to prevent fail.

- if yes you're fine at this Point.

next measuring was between connector M and ground no Voltage at all, independent on any Key position with completley connected Keyswitch

if no, you be also so far fine.

 

as you told, it runs for about 5 mins, it could maybe in my humble opinion also be a thermal Problem.

Or have your tractor even an oilsensor (retrofitted) to protect the Engine while Oillevel is low?

 

as you told also, youre untightened the Magneto, was the Mountingpoints and the screws clean of Rust - metallic blank - for good conduction? If yes, we go to next step.

 

 

i'm just thinking on several issues, what can be happen.

i'll think Garry is on the same way... 

Edited by Tractorhead
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Hi, 

 

just started taking things apart to do a visual inspection first.  WOW, never seen so much spider nest (white balls) in such a small space.

 

I found a pinched wire, it doesn't seem to be cut, but I'll let you guys tell me what you think.

 

some pictures

20181120_235924.jpg

20181120_235917.jpg

20181120_235852.jpg

20181120_235846.jpg

20181120_235841.jpg

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in addition, the metal under the ignition unit (which reads the trigger pin position) was damaged a bit, surface is not fully flat.

 

Simon

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Did you check the coil lead (smushed wire) IAW test f. above?  if it passes the test 400 ohms the put some friction tape over the bad place  reinstall and check the air gap.

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6 hours ago, pfrederi said:

Did you check the coil lead (smushed wire) IAW test f. above?  if it passes the test 400 ohms the put some friction tape over the bad place  reinstall and check the air gap.

 I would prefer a shrinktube instead of friction Tape.

 

a cautional cleaning with a smooth brush under water with bit of soap.

dry by carefully blown with Hairdryer max airlevel light heat level - never use a heat Gun, because it can be quickly too hot.

After dry, take a closer look also to the cable harness in your second Pic upper left side, that it was not squeezed by mounting at all.

it seems to me, here is also the insulation bit squeezed and lightly ripped. Please check.

 

control also there are no sharp edges on the covers where cable harness will be passed thru, they can cause shorts. By the Way, control please the whole Wire Harness at the Tractor, especially where harness will be covered by Metal, that nothing scraps the insulation.

If so, reseal the insulation and remove sharp edges by a file.

You must prevent anything can harm any insulation.

 

because of the age and the state i have seen i your pics, if all connectors are well crimped and still have good conductive. If the contacts have verdigris, clean them and protect the contacts by petroleum jelly with a brush.

 

 

About the Metal surface under the Ignition, use carefully a steelbrush if possible and after that a steelwool to remove rust and dirt. Make it metallic blank, to get good conduction.

if needed use a piece of sandpaper with about 240 grain size, to bring it metallic blank.

 

on my old Onan, i have at the beginning also bit troubles with missfire while the Magneto was strong corroded.

After i cleaned it with sandpaper and correct the gap, it fires much better as before and missfires was eliminated.

 

Hope i can help you, to bring your Engine quick back to work.

 

 

 

Edited by Tractorhead
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do I see this right,, 600-650 ft pound torque for the flywheel nut.  What you guys do, I think my impact only goes up to 500 or 550 in that direction, and my 1/2 inch torque wrench only does 250 .. 

 

thanks

 

Simon

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