Wheel Horse 416 with a repowered Briggs and stratton 23 hp vanguard crank no start

[mikekot3 92]

My 416-8 tractor I have repowered with a small engine warehouse Briggs and Stratton 23hp vanguard engine two years ago. This week the tractor ran fine and I cut most of the grass until it rained out. I thought I would finish the lawn the next day but I will not run correctly. The tractor will crank but will not start. I have replaced the spark plugs and fuel filter already to no avail. I removed the spark plug and used starting fluid in the cylinder but It did not help any. When cranking the engine is the clear fuel filter housing supposed to fill up most of the way? It seems to be only filled about 1/4 of the way. I found a bad terminal in the engine to chassis 9 pin molex connector for the starter which I bypassed until I get a terminal remover tool. I bought a new molex connector body and terminals for this type of repair a few years ago. Another weird thing is when it did start and run in the past the switch is turned to start I have to turn on the head light switch for it crank over. Once it started I would turn off the head light switch to disengage the starter.  The switch and head light trick has been working for two years.  I am presuming I put the wrong terminal in the wrong spot in the 9 way connector 2 years ago but I worked fine other wise for two years.  Is there any other trouble spots I need to test on the tractor? 

I have a fluke dvom for testing purposes if needed.

Thank you in advance.

[Skipper 1,788]

Does the starter relay get any juice when you turn the key?

[953 nut 54,947]

8 hours ago, mikekot3 said:

Once it started I would turn off the head light switch to disengage the starter.  The switch and head light trick has been working for two years.  I am presuming I put the wrong terminal in the wrong spot in the 9 way connector 2 years ago but I worked fine other wise for two years.

Don't spend money replacing parts just for the sake of replacing things until you have corrected the core problem.

Obviously you have an improperly wired unit and have been successfully working around the problem rather than correcting it, Find the wiring for your tractor in this guide and correct the problem. Presuming the B&S and the previous engine have the same type ignition system there should be no major difference.

 

 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,020]

Be real careful testing the problem.

B&S use a magneto ignition which is self-powered. If any battery voltage happens to get to the ignition wire coming from the engine the magic smoke will be released from the ignition coil.

 

What engine got replaced or what is the long model number of the tractor? That will help us understand what you are working with.

The 416-8 used a Kohler with battery ignition, a Kohler with magneto ignition and an Onan with battery ignition.

 

Garry

[mikekot3 92]

My original engine was an onan p216 engine. The new engine is a vanguard v-twin 23 hp.  I have purchased the service manual from briggs and stratton directly which is part number 272144.   The new engine is model: 386447 03124042

Type is: 3048-G1

Code is : 14122611

The old toro model is : 73420 serial number 5900434.

Thank for the advice I have received thus far.

Edited August 10, 2018 by mikekot3

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,020]

We have now way of knowing what instructions were provided for the Onan to B&S conversion in this application.

Identify which ignition switch you are using by looking at the back of the switch where each terminal should be identified with a letter.

 

Original switch for the Onan ignition.

Click on the picture and again on the pictures on the page that comes up. Ignition terminal identified with an "I" (eye)

 

A possible switch used to accomodate the B&S magneto ignition

Click on the picture and again on the pictures on the page that comes up. Ignition terminal identified with a "M"

If I was doing the conversion I would add a relay to control the ignition using the original Onan ignition switch. That way the rest of the original wiring would still be utilized as intended.

Let us know what you find

Garry

 

[mikekot3 92]

I will take a look at the switch this weekend. The engine as provided by small engine warehouse has relays mounted to it.

Here is a diagram they provided to me for their harness.

 

small engine warehouse wiring diagram D_WH520-Wire-BV.PDF

[Lee1977 6,632]

You say you have a 416-8 and the wiring diagram says it's for a 520. That could be part of your problem.

[mikekot3 92]

Yes I asked them about that Lee. They said it would work fine in a 416 tractor. I have a briggs and Stratton spark tester coming on sunday to narrow it down the problem areas.

[mikekot3 92]

If need be I will get the kit that has the ignition switch on the engine itself if it comes to that.

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,020]

I think what we need to see is the relays they added to the engine and the wiring at that location.

The diagram you posted does not show any white wires or where they go.- 2, 6 and 8 in the 9-pin connector.

 

I hope you can identify and disconnect the ignition kill wire from whatever it goes to at the engine. Doing that will eliminate an accidental surge of power into the wire = Smoke. It likely goes to a relay they added to the engine. You can still work on it with the wire disconnected. When the key is turned to the run position the ignition relay should click and you will feel it also.

 

It sounds like 9 and 13 are reversed and the reason the headlamps activate the starter solenoid but I would not mess with that until you correct the no-start condition. Get that fixed and this problem may disappear.

 

The diagram shows the colors of the SEW harness between the engine and the WH 9-pin connector but I don't know nor can I find what each pin goes to in the other half of the original connector.

 

Garry

[mikekot3 92]

Yes I was wondering why the diagram did not show the relays either. There are two I believe on the engine. I will ask them the send me a diagram that show them if they will give it to me.

 

That would really help.

Garry

[mikekot3 92]

I have not gotten a reply back from small engine warehouse as of 8/16/2018 evening. I bought two Briggs and Stratton ignition spark testers. When cranking the engine I saw no spark. I took the engine shroud off and tested the ignition coils. With my Fluke 88 dvom I measured the ignition coils at 6.35 K ohms each approximately. The service manual did not show a specification that I could find. I checked the two inline diodes to the coils. I got about .5 volts and OL when I reversed the leads on both diodes. My assumption that this is good thus far.

The ignition switch is original to the tractor. It has five terminals on it but only four are used. I cleaned the switch terminals with a wire brush and added some dielectric grease.

My thoughts are that I need to check for voltage at each position on the switch key off and then in crank and start. Then do a voltage drop to the starter.

There are a bunch of safety interlocks I need to figure out also.

Please advise if I made any errors and if I am on the right track or not.

Edited August 17, 2018 by mikekot3

[Howie 886]

Just unhook the kill switch wire at the engine and crank, see if there is fire. I hardly ever use a meter to check these coils because B&S doesn't give any info.

They either work or they don't, look at them closely to make sure 12 volts has not been fed thru them. They would be melted probably. Did they send any 

kind of diagram for their wiring for this. I have looked there and they have mentioned making up a transition piece.

[mikekot3 92]

Thanks Howie for the feedback. I asked small engine warehouse via email for a better diagram but no response yet. I was worried I would snap off the terminal on the coils as it were very tight. I sprayed some lube on it let it soak in.  I will try starting it with out the kill wire off also.

I learned that trick on youtube's "Taryl fixes all" . He is funny and I learned a lot from him.

Also the correct ignition switch is Toro 103990 about 25 dollars at the dealer for my application.

 

Edited August 18, 2018 by mikekot3

[mikekot3 92]

I did disconnect the ignition kill wire to the coils but it made no change. I took apart all the connections to the dash area and cleaned them with my terminal brush tools and put dielectric grease on them. The tractor now runs fine. Basically I had a bunch of voltage drops to take care of. I will now figure out which terminal pair I have in the wrong spot in the 9 way molex connetor.

I bought an old wiring harness to compare to. What terminals are used at the fuse box so I can replace them them?