illinilefttackle 399 #1 Posted June 10, 2017 Hi Guys- I just brought a 72 RAIDER back to life for a guy- it had been sitting for a while because it won't start- Had spark right off- it burns some oil- checked the plug- it was carboned up pretty bad- Tractor started ran for about half - hour- then quit like shutting switch off- then backfired when trying to start it again- towed it back to the garage & checked spark- none, except when key is turned off- much like Ford systems of a while back. Coil was hot to touch----Anybody bump into this before? Sounds to me like coil is failing when it gets hot. But I guess pick-up could fail like that too. If anyone has run into this- whats cheapest solution- used parts- or convert to Battery Ignition? If you can help- I would like to hear from you- not done checking it out- just gave up for today- Thanks- Al Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
953 nut 58,546 #2 Posted June 11, 2017 @Aldon did a thread on converting to points ignition. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
illinilefttackle 399 #3 Posted June 11, 2017 Thanks- how do I find his thread?- Al Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
illinilefttackle 399 #5 Posted June 11, 2017 Thanks- that was just what I needed!- Al Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pfrederi 18,427 #6 Posted June 11, 2017 You can test the coil and trigger before you go to a battery system. if you do change i would be interested on buying your breakerless parts... 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
illinilefttackle 399 #7 Posted June 11, 2017 Thanks- I'm going to test them- back in the Day I remember on the Ford breakerless system- it meant something when you got a spark as you turned key off-I am getting that- it meant either the unit was good, and the trigger was bad-or something- have to look it up- thanks for your info- I will keep you posted on parts- Al 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pfrederi 18,427 #8 Posted June 11, 2017 One other thought. Is you ignition switch working properly? The M terminal should read open during start and run but grounded when the switch is off 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
953 nut 58,546 #9 Posted June 11, 2017 16 minutes ago, illinilefttackle said: I remember on the Ford breakerless system- it meant something when you got a spark as you turned key off-I am getting that- it meant either the unit was good, and the trigger was bad-or something- have to look it up Interesting, please share your research when you find the article. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
illinilefttackle 399 #10 Posted June 11, 2017 2 hours ago, pfrederi said: One other thought. Is you ignition switch working properly? The M terminal should read open during start and run but grounded when the switch is off Thats an area for concern- but as far as I can see in my research- having spark once when turning key off means the switch is powering the coil as it should- they say the spark normally means the module is good-( in this case coil) trouble could be triggering device or (intermittent switch contact- Man- I hate electrical stuff!- Thanks- Ill let you know what I find- Al Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pfrederi 18,427 #11 Posted June 11, 2017 3 minutes ago, illinilefttackle said: Thats an area for concern- but as far as I can see in my research- having spark once when turning key off means the switch is powering the coil as it should- they say the spark normally means the module is good-( in this case coil) trouble could be triggering device or (intermittent switch contact- Man- I hate electrical stuff!- Thanks- Ill let you know what I find- Al As I believe you said this was a breakerless system the switch does not power the coil. it grounds it when you turn it off. (If you power the coil you fry the breakerless system 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
illinilefttackle 399 #12 Posted June 11, 2017 Youre right I'm confused- I knew what I meant- but on one else did- thats why someone said to disconnect the wire at the coil coming from the switch-to see if it was grounding it. SO- if it is powered by stator, does a spark mean the stator is good? I think I'm in over my head!- Al Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
953 nut 58,546 #13 Posted June 11, 2017 Had this stashed away, may help you test the module. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pfrederi 18,427 #14 Posted June 12, 2017 In a breakerless system the stator has 2 separate parts. One part functions like a normal stator and generates AC voltage that feeds the Regulator thus charging the battery and lights. The other smaller part generates current for the spark. The ignition system has 4 components The stator part that generates current for the spark, The trigger unit that controls the current and times it, the coil that ups the voltage to feed the last part, the spark plug. Any one of the four parts can fail then no spark. Once the engine is turning the system will generate a spark until you ground the coil (done by the M terminal on your ignition switch). If you had a spark then I would suspect a trigger or coil failure. I used to think that triggers either worked or they didn't ...till I came across one that would pass the manual test sometimes but not every time. If you use a spark plug tester like the cheap one (i use) from Harbor Freight you will notice it flashes fast. Breakerless systems fire on every rotation of the engine (called wasted spark) 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
illinilefttackle 399 #15 Posted June 12, 2017 Thanks for the refresher- I checked the coil- it ohms out correctly- no shorts- (but what about when it heats up) Tractor ran for about 10 min then just shut off no spark- still has no spark- except when turning key off- I unhooked the kill wire from the switch- still no spark-borrowing a flash lite tester to check trigger- thought I had found a frayed wire near starter, but false alarm. When I had spark, I remember it was fast like you say- wish I could get it back- really don't want to convert this thing over- Thanks- Al Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
illinilefttackle 399 #16 Posted June 13, 2017 Used a Flash light tester on the trigger- diodes tested OK- but SCR switch would not react to tapping-I assume this is how they most frequently go bad. Anyone have a used one? I Emailed Brian Miller to see if he had a direct replacement trigger that would fit. Don't think this guy wants to spend nearly $200 for a full kit from B. Miller. If I can't find anything- it looks like I might be taking at least 2 steps backwards & converting to points- Thanks- Al 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
illinilefttackle 399 #17 Posted June 13, 2017 Just heard from Brian Miller- $242 for OEM Kohler trigger- or- $168 for his complete solid state kit-OR- $68 for his points conversion kit- Decisions, Decisions- Al 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pfrederi 18,427 #18 Posted June 13, 2017 That is what happened to mine that went bad. except it would work every 3 or 4th time I tapped it. Coils i have no extra tiggers Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
953 nut 58,546 #19 Posted June 13, 2017 31 minutes ago, illinilefttackle said: $68 for his points conversion kit Considering the contents of the kit I would say that is a good price. I am unapologetically old school! Points and coils worked well before electronic ignition systems and triggers and I prefer them. If the trigger system on my GT-14 went bad I wouldn't hesitate to put in points. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pfrederi 18,427 #20 Posted June 13, 2017 4 minutes ago, 953 nut said: Considering the contents of the kit I would say that is a good price. I am unapologetically old school! Points and coils worked well before electronic ignition systems and triggers and I prefer them. If the trigger system on my GT-14 went bad I wouldn't hesitate to put in points. Make sure his kit includes a new ignition switch, you will need one. Is your starter curently wired direct thought the switch or do yo have a solenoid? Direct wire switches for battery ignition are not cheap. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
illinilefttackle 399 #21 Posted June 13, 2017 Good advice guys- Guy says he wants to keep it original! You know what that means- OEM trigger for $242. I notified Brian Miller, but also told him I will not complete the order until I see the cash- "just saying". Thanks for the help- Ill keep you posted, maybe even a few pics- Al 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pfrederi 18,427 #23 Posted June 13, 2017 (edited) 44 minutes ago, illinilefttackle said: Good advice guys- Guy says he wants to keep it original! You know what that means- OEM trigger for $242. I notified Brian Miller, but also told him I will not complete the order until I see the cash- "just saying". Thanks for the help- Ill keep you posted, maybe even a few pics- Al Search Evil bay better deals...not great but better. A237339 Edited June 13, 2017 by pfrederi 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
