Not what I was expecting

[Ed Kennell 41,776]

10 hours ago, Jack45 said:

 I have to keep throttle and choke fully pulled to get her to idle at all and she will still die after a while.

 

I have found this symptom to be an indication of  too much  air  leaking into  the carb around a worn throttle shaft or a leaking carb/block gasket.

Check the throttle shaft for "play", and the two carb mounting bolts.  You can also check for leaks by spraying starting fluid  around the suspected leak areas with the engine running.  If it revs up, air is leaking in.

[Jack45 69]

Been a while since I posted but I am still struggling getting this machine running (K161 motor).  Here is what I have done so far:

1. New coil, points, condenser, battery, spark plug

2. Oil change

3. Rebuild kit on the carburetor after soaking it for a week in a brand-new gallon of carb cleaner

4. New gasket on gas tank (No more leaks!!)

 

It will turn over with the electric starter and has a strong spark.  It will only fire if I spray it with starter fluid.  It will only fire as long as it has starter fluid to burn and I hold the starter button in to assist it.  I took off the fuel line and it is pulling gas from the tank to the carburetor.  The spark plug is wet when I remove it.

 

I need to get this running.  My wife is getting annoyed that this thing is taking up a stall in the garage and not doing any work.

 

Thanks!

[Ed Kennell 41,776]

On ‎6‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 10:56 AM, Ed Kennell said:

 

I have found this symptom to be an indication of  too much  air  leaking into  the carb around a worn throttle shaft or a leaking carb/block gasket.

Check the throttle shaft for "play", and the two carb mounting bolts.  You can also check for leaks by spraying starting fluid  around the suspected leak areas with the engine running.  If it revs up, air is leaking in.

Did you check the throttle shaft for air leaks?

[Jack45 69]

When I took the carburetor apart, I also took out the throttle shaft and cleaned it up as well.  It seems pretty tight in there.  I haven't been able to get the motor running to see if there is an air leak around the gaskets.  The carb kit did NOT come with a gasket for the spot between the carb and block.  I had to re-use the old one but I don't think that should prevent it from running at all should it?  I have tried "jiggling" the throttle manually while holding the starter button in.  There is a small change in the "sucking" sound.  I am sure the experts have technical terms for all this but I am no expert.   I could probably do a short video if that would help.

[WHX?? 51,692]

4 hours ago, Jack45 said:

My wife is getting annoyed that this thing is taking up a stall in the garage

Did you try the "but dear it's a gift from YOUR dear old Dad"???  If that don't work the only other recourse is for me to come get it.... i been lookin for a 702 for a longggg time!

 

Seriouly was ther any gunk in the tank when you changed the gasket? Any chance your freshly cleaned carb got plugged again? If it runs on starting fluid but not gas it's gotta be not getting  fuel. Maybe drop the float bowl off and see if gas is getting into the bowl. Possibly a stuck inlet valve but I'm guessing you checked all that when you had a the carb apart. Make sure the float is set right as well? the gasket you mention only comes with a gasket set but should not make the motor run at all. Engine noise should change when playing with the throttle cranking ...thats a good sign as it means the intake valve is opening.Keep us posted.

[Ed Kennell 41,776]

5 hours ago, Jack45 said:

 

 

 1. has a strong spark.  

  2. It will only fire as long as it has starter fluid to burn 

 3. The spark plug is wet when I remove it.

 

 

 

Thanks!

Statements  1and 2 indicate it is not getting fuel, but 3 indicates it is.    I'm sure you removed all the old fuel and filled with fresh fuel correct ?

[Jack45 69]

It is a two piece gas tank and it was really clean inside when I had it apart for the new gasket. I am a stickler so I tried to make sure it was clean when I put it back together.  It could have picked something up between the tank and carb though.  I will take the carb apart again (4th time now) and try those jets again.

 

As for my wife, she grew up on a farm and does not want me to become one of those "hoarder" farmers like her dad.  Two wheel horses is too many and my dad has two more to give me yet.

[WHX?? 51,692]

40 minutes ago, Ed Kennell said:

 3. The spark plug is wet when I remove it.

Flooding out maybe??

[Jack45 69]

Yes I was thinking maybe that as well.  Not sure how to fix it if it is though.

[WHX?? 51,692]

How do you have the mixture screws set? Try turning them in some. Sounds like it may be a carb issue. Any chance you have a different carb to try?

[Elkskin's mower junkyard 1,117]

sounds to me like a carb issue too.

[AMC RULES 37,195]

The short video wouldn't hurt either.  

[Jack45 69]

Cleaned the jets again today. Also took the choke thing apart and promptly lost that ball bearing to dirty garage floor hell. Put it back together anyway and can get the motor to run briefly if I hold the throttle in the middle position.  Longest it will run is about 30 seconds though. I can keep starting it until the battery runs down.  Then I am stuck waiting for the charger to recharge the battery before I can try again.

 

My other tractor has a Tecumseh motor so I can't borrow a carb from it. I did see one on eBay for $35 so I  may go that route if no one else has any more ideas for me.

 

thanks!

On August 13, 2016 at 7:29 AM, WHX7 said:

How do you have the mixture screws set? Try turning them in some. Sounds like it may be a carb issue. Any chance you have a different carb to try?

I had the idle screw at 1.5 turns out and the top screw (throttle?) at 3 turns. That is what manual says. I am playing with them now to see what happens.

[953 nut 59,746]

With a 50+ year old carburetor it is very possible the needles have been bottomed out and "blunted" to the point that they will never perform well. Also, the K 161 uses so little fuel that any small deposits in the fuel ports can disable the carburetor. Your symptoms seem to be fuel related and probably you will drive yourself crazy try to get this to work.

54 minutes ago, Jack45 said:

on eBay for $35 so I  may go that route

$ 35 is a lot cheaper than going to a shrink!    

[Elkskin's mower junkyard 1,117]

little tip this is what i use to poke around a carb for help with cleaning ports yes it wont reach everything but it does help. http://kpaulindustrial.com/kpin-326-standard-plus.html?ff=1&fp=230480&gclid=CjwKEAjwrcC9BRC2v5rjyvSbhWASJACKkjDz83s8270Xo7rqgYlqgup4tmnHrUGcqFcDH_siPcxZTBoCB4jw_wcB

[Jack45 69]

Got the new carb and put it on. It will barely fire with starter fluid now.  I have fiddled with the carb screws.  I see a good spark.  Enough to make me jump if I touch the spark plug wire.  I did notice that the coil gets really hot to the touch.  It is new too.  The starter will spin the motor and the compression seems really good.  Getting a bit frustrated with this tractor.  What do I try next?

 

Thanks,

Rob

 

[Ed Kennell 41,776]

Hot coil and won't run on starter fluid definitely smells like an ignition problem.  

Check the wiring on the coil condenser, and points,  If the coil is hot, there must be a short to ground.

Edited August 19, 2016 by Ed Kennell

[953 nut 59,746]

We may have overlooked some basic ignition tuning problems here. Your ignition points should open briefly as the piston nears top dead center of the compression stroke. It should open about .018 +/- (18/1000) momentarily and then close. This opening of the points allows the magnetic field in the coil to "collapse" inducing current into the high voltage winding of the coil. If this is not happening you will have a weak spark; if the gap is wrong it will generate a spark at the wrong time. Correct points gap also adjusts your ignition timing.

2 hours ago, Jack45 said:

the coil gets really hot

What do you know about the history of this coil? Was it on this engine when it ran well? The ignition coil on a  has an internal resister built into it, if the coil is an automotive coil (other than VW) it will not have a resistor in it and will flow an excessive amount of current causing heat. Is the wire from the ignition switch connected to the "+" terminal and the points and condenser on the "-"?

2 hours ago, Jack45 said:

have fiddled with the carb screws.

Did you set them to the Kohler specs for this engine?

[WHX?? 51,692]

This is bizzare Rob... gotta have  two separate problems

2 hours ago, Jack45 said:

It is new too.

Is it the right coil as Dick suggested? Would it help if checked the resitance of the coil with an ohmmeter?  I though you mentioned earlier you checked and  set the points?  11/2 - 21/2 turns out on the screws should get it going enough to fine tune later?

 

2 hours ago, Jack45 said:

I see a good spark.

He confirms a good spark tho and would run 30 secs. on old carb. .....timing issues? Any chance an issue in the start/gen or reg?

 

Just thinkin out loud here..

[Ed Kennell 41,776]

On ‎8‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 10:22 AM, Jack45 said:

  Here is what I have done so far:

1. New coil, points, condenser, battery, spark plug

2. Oil change

3. Rebuild kit on the carburetor after soaking it for a week in a brand-new gallon of carb cleaner

4. New gasket on gas tank (No more leaks!!)

 

It will turn over with the electric starter and has a strong spark.  It will only fire if I spray it with starter fluid.  It will only fire as long as it has starter fluid to burn and I hold the starter button in to assist it.  I took off the fuel line and it is pulling gas from the tank to the carburetor.  The spark plug is wet when I remove it.

 

I need to get this running.  My wife is getting annoyed that this thing is taking up a stall in the garage and not doing any work.

 

Thanks!

Jacks last statement  That it will only fire as long as he holds in the starter button indicates he did not solve the ignition problem with the new coil condenser, points, plug, and battery.

 

Bad ignition switch ??

[Tuneup 1,452]

No reason to have a hot coil. Sounds like NAPA handed you the regular and not the internal resistor item  so you're toasting your points as well as the coil and are taxing the battery. Get that sorted out and fiddle with the carb adjustment and it should scream. Anybody in his area that can stop by and assist? I would if I could but you're a long way from the deep South.

[Jack45 69]

Thanks for all the replies.  Does the points open twice in a cycle?  I never realized that.  I set the points to .20 but just did it at the first gap I saw.

 

I got the coil at my local hardware/repair shop.  He looked up the item number and just happened to have one in stock.  

 

I feel like i am getting a good spark.  I can hold the ignition wire against the head and see a long blue spark.  Not too interested in trying that again though.  I got a good shock last time.  Might have been from having the battery charged still plugged in though.

 

The ignition switch is a button that doesn't always just fire up.  Sometimes I have to hold it in for a second or two before something happens.  Sometimes it will go right away.  I figured that had to do with a weak or undercharged battery though.  Is there anything in that ignition switch that I can test or look at?

 

I will look at the wiring again.  I think it is right.  I remember following them and checking it against the wiring diagram before when I was trying to figure out what all the extra wires were for.

 

I am setting the carb according to Kohler specs. 1 1/2 turns for the side screw, 3 turns for the top screw.  I have tried them both in different directions.

 

How do I check the coil?  I have a multimeter here.  Will that work?

[Jack45 69]

Went out today and it fired up for about a minute.  Long enough for me to ease off the choke some and blow a lot of smoke.  After that initial running, it died again and would only run for a few seconds at a time at full choke and if I jiggled the throttle a little.  It helped it run a little longer if I kept the starter button pushed.  Soon as a i let go though then it would die pretty quick.

[Tuneup 1,452]

It's got a coil so your battery voltage should be there when the key is on. I'm wondering if the wiring is heating from age and old corroded connections. It woould start cold and run for a few minutes or less and then sputter and quit. Follow your wiring to the heat source. Why not connect the coil directly to the coil (+) and try to start it. If she continues to run, it's somewhere in the wiring to the coil. My much newer machine did the same. Finally gave in and replaced all the wires.

[953 nut 59,746]

2 hours ago, Jack45 said:

it fired up for about a minute.

What steps have you taken to address the suggestions we have already made?

21 hours ago, Jack45 said:

How do I check the coil?  I have a multimeter here.  Will that work?