Steering very stiff question

[Al C. 1,428]

I took the frontend apart today, cleaned the spindles, inserted two steel thrust washers on each spindle, greased everything, then sewed it all back up.  Unfortunately, there is no real change.  The 486 is still a good bit stiffer than the 1067.   I'm going to start looking for a larger steering wheel.   This should make a difference.  Thanks everyone for your help.  

[cleat 7,123]

22 hours ago, ronhatch said:

Going to install my new thrust BALL bearings on my C-101 tomorrow. We''ll see how it helps

I thought that Teflon washers would work well too, but I would stack 2 of them together so they slide against each other rather then against the relatively ruff surface of the axle or spindle.

The one that I put Teflon in has 2 just like you said.

 

Seems to steer fine but then it actually steered OK before that.

 

The Swept axle machines get roller thrust bearings from the factory. Both of mine were full of hard grease so they really did not work as intended but a cleanup and re-greasing made them good as new.

[ronhatch 406]

I Installed the thrust ball  bearings on the front of my C-101 this morning. Not much difference. Very disappointed. .

[wallfish 17,675]

Is it possible the axle is worn? Like the holes for the spindles are wobbled out which will cause the vertical spindle shafts to make contact with the axle in only a small area on the top and bottom instead of being supported the entire length. That would cause more friction when weight is applied and may explain why it steers easy when lifted up but hard when sitting on the ground.

 

 

 

[cleat 7,123]

I don't know why Wheel Horse chose not to put bushings there.

 

You could drill the axle and install bushings.

 

None of my machines have a lot of play in this area but if you ran your machine for years without ever greasing these spindles, I can see how they would wear both the spindle and axle.

 

[Al C. 1,428]

I checked for this when I had everything apart.  The spindles seem to fit pretty uniformly.  I really think it is the combination of weight, tires, and steering wheel (difference between 486 and 1067).  When I placed the two inch wood discs under the front tires on the 486, they turned much more easily.  The flat wide profile of the front tires, along with the additional 300lbs weight (over the 1067), and the 2" smaller diameter steering wheel are what I'm suspecting to be the source of the difference.   

[wallfish 17,675]

46 minutes ago, cleat said:

You could drill the axle and install bushings.

I use a 7/8" construction reamer for the worn axle holes and sleeve in 3/4" ID bronze bushings.

 

 

[AMC RULES 37,161]

I bet, mounting up a set of tri ribs would make a world of difference too.  

[ericj 1,579]

i'm of a different theory and may be all wet on this, but did you check the fan gear area. like i said earlier, the couple of times that i had hard steering, that working grease into the fan gear ares made all of the difference in the world. you mat be reducing the friction by changing other areas but not actually fixing the problem just my . the tires and weight really should not be an issue since other tractors were built with that combination and don't have a similar issue

 

 

eric j  

Edited April 24, 2016 by ericj

[cleat 7,123]

As I have been rebuilding my 520's, I have pulled the steering all apart and dug all the hardened grease out of the gears then cleaned and painted them up.

 

All that hard grease in there would cause binding as it would mimic the gears being bottomed out.

 

If you can, clean out the steering gear and the fan gear then re-grease and see what that does.

[Al C. 1,428]

Fan gear here I come ... later this week.  Will let you know.

[Al C. 1,428]

Well, I got side tracked.  Finally got around to the fan gear this weekend.  Cleaned it all out.  Can't say things improved much after lining it with fresh grease.   Interestingly though, after mowing several times with the thrust washers in place, the steering seems to have lightened up noticeably.  Not sure whether the washers and axles needed to wear-in a bit, but it does seem to have made a positive difference.  At this point I'm happy.  Thanks everyone for your suggestions and patience.  

Edited May 11, 2016 by Al C.
Typo

[c-series don 9,542]

I still think the best way to fix your problem is to sell that beauty to me! Not sure if your photo is inhanced in any way but those are two really nice tractors! 

[elcamino/wheelhorse 9,360]

On 4/15/2016 at 2:39 PM, PaulC said:

really is a very cool picture with very nice horses you have there. I did a similar upgrade to what Cleat did but i used needle bearing thrust bearings i got from mcmaster carr, 3/4" bore is whats needed. I installed them on 2 417's that were steering very hard and it improved them greatly, one more then the other and with no front mounted attachments its like it has power steering. i did have to grind the top of one or two of the axels to accommodate for the thickness of the thrust bearing but it was well worth the effort.

 

http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-rolling-element-thrust-bearings/=11zufc2

 

there is the link to the page to give an idea of what i used.

Could you give me the part number or numbers you ordered ? Thanks in advance

[Al C. 1,428]

8 hours ago, c-series don said:

I still think the best way to fix your problem is to sell that beauty to me! Not sure if your photo is inhanced in any way but those are two really nice tractors! 

I use a UV filter on the pictures.  Both tractors are in good condition.  I've promised one to each of my sons.  They don't get them until they are ready to garage and care for them.  (I hope that's another 20 years!  ).  So until then, I do everything I can to keep them looking and running as close to new as possible.  

[PaulC 342]

9 hours ago, elcamino/wheelhorse said:

Could you give me the part number or numbers you ordered ? Thanks in advance

5909k33 for the bearing and i used the applicable .032 washers. I have been mowing for the past few weeks with this machine now and the steering is very very nice I am glad I put this setup on.

[Eric Friedrichsen 112]

ALC,

 

Last Spring I purchased a poorly maintained (read abused) 414-8.  For 30+years I have owned and worked a Commando 800,

plowing a 450'drive and mowing about 1/2 acre lawn.  The Commando was and is a wonderful machine.  It only failed me once

and that was when the coil battery wire broke due to vibration.  With a simple repair I was on my way in 5 minutes.

 

So I was very much looking forward to getting the 414-8 fixed up.  After rebuilding it to a working tractor I was disappointed to find

that the steering was unacceptably heavy.  I found Red Square on my internet search, joined, and posted the question of heavy steering

to the members.  They were very helpful in troubleshooting and proposing changes.

 

I did the following work on the 414-8:

     Replaced the two bushings on the horizontal steering shaft and greased well.

     Shimmed the column shaft where it fits into the fan gear and greased well. (to remove horizontal play)

     Modified the axle to accept 3/4" thrust bearings (McMaster- Carr) between the spindle and axle

     Increased front tire pressure to 21psi

     Removed the 13" steering wheel and installed a 15" steering wheel

     Installed 520hc tie rods

     Adjusted toe in to 1/4"

 

After all of the above work I found the steering to be only slightly improved and not acceptable to a day of working.

I attribute the heavy steering to:

     The heavy weight of the Magnum 14 engine

     The wide width of the 414-8 CarlisleTurf tires

     The knobs on the Carlisle tires opposing the turning of the wheel

     The steering ratio appears to be the same as my Commando 800

     The leverage arm of the bell-crank on the spindle and of the bell-crank on the horizontal steering shaft

     The small 13" wheel

 

I decided to bite the bullet and purchased a well used 520hc axle, spindles and reduction gear steering. 

Did the following work to the 520hc front end:

      Rebushed the horizontal steering shaft  

      Shimmed the steering column where it enters the fan gear mount

      New thrust bearings and washers on the spindles

      Installed trailer hubs and wheels on the spindles   

      Adjusted toe in to 1/8"

      Tire pressure 21psi

      Removed approximately 1/2" from the bell-crank on the rockshaft (at the last hole) as it was interfering with the fan gear mount

 

Now the tractor steers like a dream and I am very happy with the result.  Evidently Toro had a problem with the 414/416/520

tractors with heavy steering so they went with a reduction gear steering system on the 520hc to cure the problem.

 

I recommend to you Al that switching to the 520hc front end with the reduction gear steering system will solve your heavy

steering problem.  It has worked for many others on this site and it worked for me.  Good luck with your troubleshooting.

 

Eric

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2016 by Eric Friedrichsen

[wrightorchid 261]

This is all very helpful.  Might have to try this on my 312 and newly acquired 520H  

[elcamino/wheelhorse 9,360]

7 hours ago, PaulC said:

5909k33 for the bearing and i used the applicable .032 washers. I have been mowing for the past few weeks with this machine now and the steering is very very nice I am glad I put this setup on.

Thanks for the information. I am going to see if they will help with the steering on my c-120