GT 14 rear wheel hub

[ztnoo 2,298]

Look at this GT 14 hub pulling from Wheel Horse Junkies https://www.facebook.com/groups/263966625951/

Notice the flattened front tire.......more mass resistance to moving.......better than chocks, IMO.

 

 

Look at what this gent successfully pulled this with...... a hope, a prayer, and maybe some adult beverages. Yikes!!!

Looked real flimsy to me.......pretty scary stuff.....

He didn't bust the hub, and didn't get injured.

Definitely a home brew solution that fortunately turned out OK.

 

 

 

[ztnoo 2,298]

OK gentlemen, after a long delay caused by various diversions, obligations, distractions, some procrastination, enjoying life after my first monthly Social Security check three months after my 67th birthday, and picking any other topic you care to choose, I'm back on this project.

After finally getting those reluctant and remonstrative wheel hubs pulled, my immediate focus now is to attempt to getting the axles cleaned up (polished clean is my objective) before draining the tranny oil and digging those oil seals out.

My theory and concern about ultra clean, rust free, and polished axles serves two purposes.

1.  Polished and mirror like axles will insure minimizing damage to the new seal when they are slid over the axles and tapped into place in the axle housings.

2.  Mirror like axle finishes along with the hub bores being honed clean (see pics below text) and the judicious use of anti-seize compound upon reassembly, will ensure trouble free installation and possible removal in the future (if ever required).

 

Here's my current problem. The left hub (that moved inward last fall during yard work), proved the easiest to remove from its axle. My theory is the movement inward broke the rust bond between the axle and the hub bore. The woodruff key aligning and locking that hub radially was exceptionally easy to remove. A couple of taps with a awl in the axle slot end, and it popped right out.

Not so with the right side woodruff key. I have intermittently, since my previous post, applied alternating rounds of heat to the axle, liberal amounts of Kroil penetrant to the area of the key, and on occasion, lightly tapped and punched the key (not wanting  to intentionally damage it or the axle), and applied ice to the woodruff key after applying prolonged heat to the axle.

Nada. Nothing. No go. No detectable movement or even a slight willingness to move.

 

I'm really befuddled about how to get this one woodruff key removed from the axle without  #1 damaging the axle, and #2 damaging the key itself.

Do I need to be more aggressive "having at it" with a different technique, different procedure, a specific specialized tool? Anything? Anyone?

I'm determined to get the woodruff key removed because it prevents me using the technique I intend to employ to get those axles where the hubs were located for years looking brand new, before reassembling the hubs to the axles.

These woodruff keys are unlike anything I have ever seen on a consumer type residential product (see pic below text). They are remarkably massive in size being 2 inches in length and approximately 9/16" in height (from the upper flat portion of the key to the widest part of the radiused bottom of the key. This affords lots of surface contact area in mating with the axle slot. This is what gives them their remarkable strength and very securely insures preventing rotational movement around the axle by the hub. I'm not sure what type of steel they are fabricated from, be they are extremely hard. All my banging and clanging the one in question has made little impact on marring its surface. It's the fact because the key is so massive with considerable surface contact area with the axle which creates enormous strength, but also provides lots of surface area for rust/corrosion bonding with the axle.

 

So to all the learned experts residing here a RS, I'm in need of some serious expertise and direction to get this recalcitrant woodruff key removed so I can go about my intended goal of polishing the axles and changing the seals without risking damage to the seals themselves. What say you, gentlemen?? Have any secret technique, prayer, tool, or voodoo magic which proves effective against reluctant woodruff keys?

 

Regards,

Steve

GT 14 woodruff axle key:                                                                                                                                 

 

 

Cordless drill with Dremel 503, 3/8" x 1 1/8" 120 grit flapper wheel used for hub honing. Dremel tool itself not powerful enough to rotate flapper via Aldon's suggestion.

 

1 1/8" flapper diameter is a perfect fit in hub bores for honing

 

Edited March 9, 2016 by ztnoo

[Aldon 4,826]

I know you have likely done this but with mine, it took a pretty harsh rap with a punch at a fairly sharp angle to break mine free. As you look at the hand drawn pic, the angle I had success at was at the arrow point. When it broke free it shot out and ricochet off tranny and I had to hunt around for it:-)

[ztnoo 2,298]

Thanks Aldon.

Yeah, I've basically done that too, but maybe I just need to do more of it, including immediately after heating the axle with my mapp gas torch.

I'll have another go at it.

 

 

[oldredrider 2,547]

Aldon's method is what you need to follow. Just smack it hard; it will let go. Wear eye protection "just in case".

[TDF5G 2,051]

RS is a great forum!  I must say, I learn new things here everyday it seems.  Today I learned the definition of  remonstrative  and recalcitrant!  I had to look 'em up.

Edited March 4, 2016 by TDF5G

[ztnoo 2,298]

   There's not a thing wrong with being a bookworm occasionally!    

 

Edited March 10, 2016 by ztnoo

[can whlvr 991]

ive had to use my dremel and cut the old key,carefully to not touch the axle at all,sacrifice the 2.00 dollar key to save everything else

[ztnoo 2,298]

Well............I've banged, clanged, hammered, heated, sprayed Kroil, & cursed most of the afternoon.

Even went and bought a variety of new hardened punches to attack this extremely obstinate woodruff key.

Eventually, I mixed a stiff Bacardi & 7 Up, and digressed to a more contemplative mindset.

 

I'm convinced the enormous size of the key and surface area it exposes on the axle slot, is the problem.......well..... rather the surface area that was exposed to moisture infiltration.......and then rust corrosion.

At this point, I'm really, really frustrated.

This sucker is REALLY, REALLY STUCK.

I'm referring to an almost WELDED type of "stuck".

I absolutely have to get this key off this axle ....

However, the one thing I DO NOT WANT TO DO is damage the axle or the key slot.

I might be willing to sacrifice the key a la can whlr's suggestion by having at it with a Dremel cutting disc.

I would prefer not to take that approach, but may have to in the absence of other advice or suggested procedural mechanical solutions.

 

I'm hoping the learned, experienced mechanical gurus and sages will offer their counsel and weigh in on this topic.........sooner, rather than later, por favor.

 

Steve

Edited March 5, 2016 by ztnoo

[Aldon 4,826]

16 minutes ago, ztnoo said:

 

Eventually, I mixed a stiff Bacardi & 7 Up, and .....

 

 

Consider two suggestions. Actually 3.

 

1) have another Bacardi:-) you've earned it!

 

2) consider drilling and tapping a hole 3/4 the length of the key towards the end of axle and find a high quality bolt to screw into it and use as a leverage point. In combination with punch from side on key.

 

3) if that does not work, I would get a dremel diamond blade and make a relief cut down the length of the key as deep as the blade and try not to cut into axle. Use the other key as a reference. Once the relief cut is done, use vise grips or stout clamp mechanism to crush the two sides together to break side tension in keyway. Then if still not free, try the punch again as at this point as resistance should theoretically be less.

 

Barring these, the only option is to grind it completely out if you wish to save the axle in my opinion. But luckily you have many on forum who may have other ideas and opinions.

 

 

[daveoman1966 3,611]

With the axle resting on a SOLID...immovable...flat surface (jackstand ok), hold the FLAT side of a small ball-peen hammer onto either outside edge of the half-moon key.  Now, with a BIG BIG BIGGER hammer, violently strike the ROUND end of the ball-peen hammer head.  This is an attempt to 'roll' the key out of the slot...or at least get it started.   

 

This MAY take a couple applications but has always worked for me, without damaging the slot in the axle.  It is likely that you will flatten one side (end) the half-moon key and need to replace it.    

[N3PUY 1,031]

9 minutes ago, daveoman1966 said:

With the axle resting on a SOLID...immovable...flat surface (jackstand ok), hold the FLAT side of a small ball-peen hammer onto either outside edge of the half-moon key.  Now, with a BIG BIG BIGGER hammer, violently strike the ROUND end of the ball-peen hammer head.  This is an attempt to 'roll' the key out of the slot...or at least get it started.   

 

This MAY take a couple applications but has always worked for me, without damaging the slot in the axle.  It is likely that you will flatten one side (end) the half-moon key and need to replace it.    

NO, NO, NO!!!!!!   Never strike a hardened surface with a hardened surface!   You'll put an eye out!  

[DennisThornton 4,769]

What Aldon said.  Or take a cold chisel parallel to the shaft, catch the edge and give it no choice! 

[grine_22 145]

Anyone ever heard of or tried soaking stubborn rusted parts with THE WORKS toilet bowl cleaner? We use it around the farm from time to time...

[DennisThornton 4,769]

Most any acid will eat away at rust. Vinegar does a surprising good job though not as fast but without the downsides of hydrochloric and other acids.  I use those too!  Just pointing out some options.

Edited March 5, 2016 by DennisThornton
removed "ly"

[ztnoo 2,298]

Dennis,

I have NO CLUE about "removed "ly"  ".

Could you please enlighten me about that statement???

Steve

[DennisThornton 4,769]

29 minutes ago, ztnoo said:

Dennis,

I have NO CLUE about "removed "ly"  ".

Could you please enlighten me about that statement???

Steve

"Mostly" became "Most".  Guess that would have been more descriptive.

[ztnoo 2,298]

Dennis,

10-4

Comprendo.

Thanks for the clarification.
 

Regards,

Steve

[ztnoo 2,298]

An update from elsewhere:

Wheel hubs and axle woodruff keys have become my two most hated things to deal with in real life.

Give me a couple of weeks, and it will probably be something else.

 

Regards,

Steve

[Aldon 4,826]

Any time I start to get a big ego or start thinking I have it really good or otherwise too big for me britches, I just have to head out and try and pull a hub, flywheel or pulley off an old wheel horse and it brings me back down to earth and I realize I am only a mortal human being. Oh..and steering wheels are also quite humbling.

[ztnoo 2,298]

yeah......45 to 60 year old Wheel Horse tractors can make the most intelligent, "with it", tuned in, handy, mechanically inclined guys feel like a bumbling, idiotic, dufus in short order.

Count to ten, click your red shoe heels together, and you'll be with Dorothy in Oz...........................where there's a Horse of a Different Color.

 

  

 

I've worked on lots of different mechanical things during my lifetime, but right now, in the space I occupy in the great scheme of things, I'm about as perplexed and frustrated as I've ever been.

Who described this as a "fun" and enjoyable hobby?

I'd like to have a friendly, casual, non-confrontational conversation with that enthusiast.

The only good things going for me with this project right now is I got the engine to fire again and steering wheel comes off in flash.

Go figure............

Edited March 8, 2016 by ztnoo

[roadapples 6,981]

You will need some hair of toad & eye of bat & another Bacardi ..... Seriously I would try welding the head of a bolt, maybe 5/16 x 2", to the key. Tap on the bolt while still hot. The shock from the heat of the weld should help and you`re going to replace the seal anyway. Have done this in similar situations, although not this particular one....yet   good luck..

[ztnoo 2,298]

Woodruff key update:

 

I took daveoman1966's advice and fully supported the axle I was to work on, the right side axle.

Since I had absolutely no luck moving the key after days of mapp gas torch heat cycles, liberal applications of Kroil, a variety of different punches, several hammers, I finally threw in the towel and decided my only hope of getting the woodruff key off the axle was to try center cutting the key lengthwise and attempt to collapse the sides until the key came out.

I actually started the cutting yesterday afternoon and was very cautious and deliberate in my cutting, trying to avoid damaging the key slot and the area of the axle surrounding the slot. It is tedious work and I tired of it late in the afternoon and started back up this morning. On occasion, several times as I deepened the cut, I would stop and attempt to punch the sides of the key toward the center of the cut, gradually opening up on both sides.

I repeated heat and Kroil cycles a few more times and each time cutting a little deeper and continually making depth calculations using the good left axle woodruff key as a gauge compared with the depth on the cutting disc.

Finally after cutting a little more and flat punching both sides of the key, the key began to rotate upward in the slot on the side closest to the axle housing. I was then able to actually wiggle it with my fingers and it came out!

Eureka! Time for a celebratory Bacardi!

I have somewhere between 4-5 hours from start to success removal in the cutting and punching operation.

Interestingly enough, all my heat/Kroil cycles reveal NO PENETRATING effect in the lower half and bottom of the woodruff key. Dry as a bone. This sucker was definitely "rust welded" to the axle.

 

I then started the tractor and put the tranny in forward to spin the axles. I dressed them with #220 wet paper with WD40, the progressed to #320 wet paper with WD40 applied to remove traces of corrosion discoloration and lightly dress the axle, not unlike what you would do on a lathe. Granted the axle doesn't turn particularly quickly, but the fact they rotated allow me to evenly dress each one. I also ran a second flapper disc I had of the same type I had used earlier to hone the hubs lightly, once again. Remarkably, both hubs now slide easily onto each respective axle. Looks like progress to me. It's about friggin' time!

 

The right axle key slot near the top of of the slot needed some very light filing to dress the edge which had been dented slightly inward. I filed until the good woodruff key would slide about half way into the slot.

I decided to stop that procedure until I actually located and have in my possession the appropriate, new woodruff keys for installation, and alter the slot as need to fit easily.

 

So, it's time to clean things up a bit. Then drain the tranny and remove and replace the axle seals. I'm hoping that goes smoothly because I believe I've had more than my fair share of problems between removing the hubs and dealing with the obstinate woodruff key.

 

The workplace:                                                                                                          The cutting tools:

   

 

Comparative examples: Good used woodruff key vs. shot split key

 

There has to be a supplier or two or three that has these large woodruff keys out there in the world of industrial suppliers.

These keys weren't made special for Wheel Horse. They had to have been picked from regular industrial stock and inventory.

What reinforces that theory in my mind is the woodruff keys aren't shown at all in the parts illustrations and parts listings..........probably because they aren't/weren't proprietary parts.......they're a generic part that was/is available. Maybe not at the local hardware store, but still accessible and available in general terms.

Aldon theorizes, and I think reasonably so, that it's highly like any Wheel Horse tractor with 1 1/8" axles likely had the same size woodruff keys to secure the hubs. How about you D Series owners out there??? What do your woodruff axle keys look like???

If I can just bump into the right supplier(s) who will sell in modest quantities......I don't need lots of 25 or 50. I might go for 10, if necessary.

 

The jargon used with the key sizing left me scratching my head a bit.

Finally I figured out the 2 3/4" spec referred to the diameter from which the key is machined.

Depending on the supplier, they may describe the key by the diameter from which it is cut, or another supplier may describe it by the key's actual length. On the surface you would assume they are two different keys when in fact it can be the same key......it isn't just readily apparent. Who among us deals with woodruff keys and their sizing on a daily basis. Almost NO ONE.

I got out my dad's old drafting tools and swung a 1 3/8" radius to draw a complete circle of 2 3/4".

My good key fits perfectly to that drawn radius.

1/4" (W) x .58" (H)  x  2" (L)  on a 2 3/4" diameter, full radius

 

This is like a Star Trek voyage with Captain Kirk and Dr. Spock........into the unknown world of woodruff keys..........

 

C'est la vie,

Steve

[Aldon 4,826]

Congrats!!!!!

 

[DennisThornton 4,769]

I think that cycles of heat and penetrant, even Kroil, is mostly a waste of both heat and penetrant.  Heat insufficient to release the part only burns/drives away the penetrant and the insufficient heat does nothing to get the part out.  Yes a little heat and sometimes a little penetrant by itself will indeed sometimes release a part that's a little stuck.  But if long soaks and some rapping and hammer tapping (or POUNDING) won't free it then it needs some HEAT!  Not with a hair dryer, or propane torch but with something that will deliver at least red heat!  Now often that kind of heat can also melt adjacent parts or damage the temper of surrounding or attached parts so the trick is to use some real HEAT!  Fast and furious to heat at least part of the offending part to at least a dull cherry red, persuade it out and quickly cool the remaining.

 

For removing stuck parts, to me, "heat" means at least a dull cherry red HEAT, usually delivered by an oxy/acet torch.  I probably wouldn't have wrapped a wet towel around both sides of the axle but you could, then I would have very quickly heated the protruding part of that key to almost white hot, which would dull by the time I grabbed my chisel and hammer and I cannot have any other image in my head other that it coming out seconds later.