Axle needle bearing insert; how deep ?

[SPINJIM 1,978]

I went to replace the axle oil seal on my 1257, and found that the old needle bearing had almost completely disintegrated.   After a lot of digging with ice picks, I managed to get the old one out in pieces.   While cleaning out the space around the axle, I found that there is not a shelf or a ridge that will limit how far in the new bearing can be inserted.  The new bearing ( # B-1816) is coming via ebay on Wednesday.   Should I insert it only deep enough to leave space for the new seal, or should it go in deeper?  I have a metal tube with  1 1/8" I D that would allow me to drive it in deeper, but I'm thinking that 1/4" deep would be best.  What's your recommendation?

I'm planning to 'pack' the bearing with marine axle grease, but should I also shoot some grease in the gap between the inner and outer bearings? 

Thanks,  Jim

[sorekiwi 761]

I usually drive the bearing in about 1/16th inch past where the seal will sit.  I dont really have a good reason why, I guess I just feel that there should be a little gap between the bearing and the seal.

Having said that, I would be nervous about replacing that bearing without splitting the trans.  As you have seen, when that bearing gets really worn then it falls apart, and the needle rollers go everywhere.  You say you got the old bearing out, but are you positive there is not a piece floating around in the axle tube?  Just waiting to jam up that NLA roller bearing on the side of the diff?  Or waiting to jam between the teeth of some of the gears?

Personally I'd split the case and make sure.  Just letting you know the "worst case scenario".

[doc724 924]

I agree with Mike (Sorekiwi).  I had a needle bearing in my C141 fail just as yours.  When I split the trans, there were needles and pieces of needles everywhere inside.  And yes, those fragments got into the bearing carrier in the 1533 bearing and it was trashed on one side.  The axles were also a bit chewed up, but still usable.  If you don't want to split the trans, I would take the pieces of broken needles (assuming you still have them) and see how many "full" needles they would make.  Compare that number to the number of needles in a new bearing and you have your answer.

[SPINJIM 1,978]

I agree with your advice, Mike and Don.   I did count all of the needle bearings, and they are all out.  I think I got out all of the pieces of the bearing case also.  I sprayed carb cleaner into the cavity, probed around with a stiff wire, and shot some air pressure in as well.   Also, drained the trans, and plan to flush with kerosene and Marvels Mystery Oil.  Will also put a magnet up into the drain hole.  

I didn't think any fragments from the needle bearing would get past the axle's inner ball bearing inside the case.  As you can tell, I really don't want to split the trans.  I already have two engines apart on my work bench, and WH snow thrower I need to fix before the snows come.  

Thanks for the help with the bearing depth.  I'll drive about 1/8" past the thickness of the oil seal.

Jim

[WHX?? 47,017]

I hear what yer sayin about the work bench space Jim

And advice well taken...I have a 1067 with the same issue I am going to have to deal with.

[stevasaurus 22,273]

What ever you do...and I set the bearing to accept the seal and be flush...do not fill the axle with grease!!!  The trans is made to circulate 90 wt oil throughout the trans and it has worked great that way for over 58 years...you can put a little grease in the bearing, but it is not necessary.  I like to put a little Lucas Oil in the bearings and on the gears when putting together. 

[SPINJIM 1,978]

What ever you do...and I set the bearing to accept the seal and be flush...do not fill the axle with grease!!!  The trans is made to circulate 90 wt oil throughout the trans and it has worked great that way for over 58 years...you can put a little grease in the bearing, but it is not necessary.  I like to put a little Lucas Oil in the bearings and on the gears when putting together. 

Thanks for letting me know that the trans oil will flow out to the needle bearing.  I'll just use enough 90w oil to help slide the new bearing into the housing.  I've seen some needle bearings shipped with grease already packed into them, so that's what made me question it.  
   Jim

[MalMac 1,328]

I it's already been said, but I am throwing in my opinion and that's just what it is an opinion. I know you said you accounted for the pieces. By not splitting that transmission your inviting trouble. Plain and simple it only takes a very small piece of that hard bearing roller/needle to cause one big heartache. Hate to see you ruin something. I say this because I have taken the easier way and have had it bite me in the backside and took a big bite out of my wallet.  Ok preaching done, good luck.

[pfrederi 17,192]

When needle bearings go bad  stuff happens like this





 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,539]

I can't believe he got all of the bearing shell out. They can be a chore with the axle out of the housing because they are so thin.

Garry

[SPINJIM 1,978]

OK., you all convinced me.   I'm going to split the trans, check the axles, and look for other pieces of the bearing.   As you all have said, it's better to make sure now rather than regret it latter.   I've always wanted to see the inside of a UniDrive first hand anyway.   I just can get to it until I finish three other WH projects, so it may not happen until springtime.  

After seeing the pictures of the axle from pfrederi, I want to see how chewed up the axle is.  Also, if the right bearing was bad, good chance the left bearing is also.  Are replacement axles available???

Thanks for all of the replies.  You may have saved me a lot of headaches.

    Jim

[stevasaurus 22,273]

Axles and other parts are available.  You will not be sorry to take a look inside...even if there is nothing really wrong.  I find great satisfaction opening up a transmission.  You never know what you will find in there, but you will know what is in there when you are done...besides that...it is too easy to check it out.  By the way...you should have the bevel gear differential...another good reason to open it up.