"Collectors" versus Price versus Overpriced

[TT-(Moderator) 1,162]

There are many, many sellers that prey on the "uneducated" or gullible buyers..... and not just with Wheel Horse tractors, parts, and equipment.
When I see huge asking prices attached to tractors like the 753 above (which I think started out at $2999.00), I can only hope that no one actually pays that much -- but it happens. And WHEN it happens, you certainly can't blame the seller. That's why we really can't put a monetary value on this stuff. It's only worth what someone is willing to pay for it - no matter what "the one on ebay or Craigslist just sold for". In time the ability to recognize these "rectally abrasive" machines and sellers will come easier for most guys - but a few will never catch on. I can see an increase in the prices just in the last few years that still leaves me confused. Tractors that should only be bringing $50 (or less) are bringing four times that amount, and a lot of that is courtesy of the internet/ebay/etc. I recently heard of a potentially available original running/operating 551 and followed up on the lead, only to hear these words from the owner: "I'll have to see what they're bringing on ebay". Needless to say, I walked away grinning and never went back.
There are still some acquaintances of mine who think that I would want (and should buy) every Wheel Horse they tell me about. Their key remark is "well, you collect Wheel Horses, don't you?", and usually it's not worth trying to explain. If I was doing it to have the most tractors made by Toro/Wheel Horse, it would be different.... but how many 211-3's, 13-38XL's, and B-115's could a guy actually stand?
As for the "new" collectors, I think once the initial adrenaline rush wears off and knowledge and experience comes in to play, the 310-8's, 657's,and C-81's will give way to more "rare and desirable" models.
I believe there is currently one of our members who recently "caught the bug" and packed his garage with quite a few Wheel Horses, but it now selling off a few of them. Whether it's due to space issues, money issues, or the realization that you just can't buy everything with Wheel Horse written on the side that comes along, I don't really know. I do know that it happens a lot though. It is also impossible to save every last remaining Wheel Horse on Earth and one has to learn to differentiate the "value of salvation" between a 417 Hydro and a 420LSE, or a 603 and a 605. You have to admit that it's more painful to see a decent 854 get parted out than a C-100, right?

As far as the seller of the 753 is concerned -- I am not supporting his sales or the way he conducts business, but you do need to keep in mind that RedSquare is a "public" place and anyone - including these sellers - are able to see the remarks at will. Word gets around quickly if the sellers are blatantly dishonest or if they frequently omit pertinent information about what they are selling. Remember the twin cylinder tractor in NJ (I think) that "runs great" but only on one cylinder?
I know I've been a bit scare lately (by comparison) but it was time to voice my opinion on some of this. Forgive me for writing another novel, but I feel it was due. I'll step away from the podium now. Thanks!

[kj4kicks 154]

TT , well put !

:USA:

[T-Mo-(Moderator) 4,599]

TT, everything you wrote is true. I, myself, had found a few Wheel Horses around here and almost every one of them I would like to have had. But, like you said, I can't buy every one I see or I be storage poor, as well as money poor.

As to the "what's it worth", Karl posted a few months back about "what's it worth" posts and for the most part, members have heeded it. If I would to buy that 753 for the asking price it's not the seller's fault, but mine. And the next one the seller has will probably be reflected in the price since I paid that much for the last one he had. Like I said that's a nice looking 753 but it's not worth that much too me. And if I was to pay that much, then it's my business. But I also realize that more than likely it would drive the price up on his other stuff.

I'm not a collector, but I like what I have now. I have touch of the round hoods with my 753, the 70's C-series with the C-141, a black hood with the C-125 and a 314-8 to represent the classic 300 series. I know I don't have all eras and models covered, but I doubt if I ever will.

[glenn27 71]

very well put--TT. Lot of times our "want-to" gets in the way of good old common sense. Recently, I would have thought prices would start to go down, with the economy/job outlook/banks problems---but several items on e-bay and locally are still sky-high............

Just don't understand....

[refracman 167]

I believe the prices are reflecting what we have known all along.( post 1970 ) That a good quality used unit is worth paying for. If you look at the other good brands they have held their pricing where the WH brand was undervalued as a used unit and is now rebounding.

Also going to a good used unit that you can get attachments for far below new pricing is now is also gaining favor.

I also feel that sometimes people are asking/ paying to much in the collector market ( pre '70), that is their decision ( same holds true for all collector markets ). We also now live in a much bigger marketing base than we once did. Where things that were plentiful they brought a lower price and scarce a high price are now equal. And with the networking / shipping available everyone has a chance of aquiring what they want and this in turn will drive prices up.

With all that being said if a unit is in good repair and proper maintainance has been done, it should bring fair market value, this holds true for all things.

A very good example of this is the musle car market. In the early 90s you could buy a 68 Shelby for 30,000 and now it'll cost you 150,000 or more.

[marvairplanes 34]

I agree 100% with Steve's remarks !

Every time I walk toward the front doors of the big box stores and see the line up of their shiney , PLASTIC, lawn mowers (tractors)...green, red, gray, whatever...I can't even force myself to believe that intillegent people will pay that kind of money for that quality (disposable) merchandise.

But they obviously do...and a few years later, do it all over again!

Am I going to buy Ontoyou's tractor for $1999...NO!!!!!

Is it worth his asking price? Well, it's his tractor and his call. He's giving me the message that today, he won't sell for less.

But, if he were 500 miles closer, I would go take a look.

And you know what?

I might just buy it!

Not because I think it's worth that money, nor do I think I could ever get that $$ back if I sold. In my opinion it's certainly a better deal than a $1999 unit from Lowes or Menards

I would buy it because I wanted it...

I have over 30 Wheel Horse tractors in my collection. Some represent less than $100 investment. A few are well over $3000. I don't add tractors to my collection because I'm trying to see how much money I can make reselling them.

Case in point...this past summer I bought two new tractors...a 420LSE and a C-195 Auto. Two beautiful tractors ! Did I pay too much???Probably ! But I would have paid even more if the sellers would have asked a higher price...

just because I wanted them.

Marv (NW Ohio)

[linen beige 15]

Interesting subject, to say the least. I have bought from this seller, more than once. At least one of the items was very exspensive, but it was in VERY good condition, VERY rare, and I was NOT the only bidder willing to pay a lot for it. Most, if not all the others were also in very good condition and I feel that I almost stole a couple of them.

That just goes to point out that "collector's items" are, like Karl and others have said, worth what someone is willing to pay. Steve used the Shelby as an example. I will use older cars for examples since I've followed them for a while. I feel that in the case of most of the muscle cars prices are way overinflated compared to what those machines represent in terms of rarity, innovation for their time, reputation as having been the best, and most of the other common sense attributes that generally affect the value of older items. A lot of these prices have been generated by buyers who really don't know what they are bidding on or the details that SHOULD make some models worth a LOT more than others. A GT350H is much more rare than a generic GT350, a '68 GT500KR even more so. Same thing with the Z-28 Camaro. Not many collectors even know where the number came from, or what it can mean in terms of rarity. The '67 was the only true Z-28. The number was the order code for a factory built race car. It was only available in '67 and all subsequent models were toned down street cars. A nicely optioned D code '57 Thunderbird is nowhere near as rare as a stripped down F (supercharged) model. Any of y'all ever seen a base, no option '65 Thunderbird? I have one and it's the only one I've seen.

This relates to our tractors this way. RJs are becoming increasingly harder to find. Ones with leather shifter boots are few and far between. But to the untrained buyer they are both just RJs. The tractor in this listing is not really a rare model. it does have some somewhat rare options added to it that make it interesting, if not more valuable. The headlights are neat and serve a function. But are they a rare original option? The dual wheels are neat and serve a function, but even though originals are getting rare, they can be copied easily and it's very hard to tell the difference. Are they secured with the proper nylock nuts? The hubcaps are pretty, but they are easy to obtain. The hydro lift is rare, neat, and serves a function. But this unit does not have the correct, original steel lines coming from the pump. It does not have the correct seat. The flywheel screen is not the right color, etc. I could go on with details nitpicking, but the point is, this is NOT a very rare package, and even though it does look pretty good, I feel it is way overpriced.

[refracman 167]

Jim

I agree that most people do not know what makes a "collectors item" a collectors item and I have to admit that when it comes to Wheel horses I am one of them. I only purchase / collect ones that can be put to use as a daily use tractor. Case in point I only have 1 pre 1970 ( 753 lol ) and its in the shop attic still awaiting reassembly only because I have no work for it. That is why I stay out of the "collecters market", and only mess with the ones that I can use around the house.

[T-Mo-(Moderator) 4,599]

I split this topic out of the 753 topic in the For Sale section. It seems to have grown into it's own topic. Here's the thread it's split from: http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/index.php?showtopic=5668

[Duff 206]

An interesting topic indeed, and I hope some of the other relative newbies like myself are reading it. The more experienced among you are making some great points!

To Glenn's observation that prices appear to be staying sky high in the face of the current economy, I think we'll see some downward movement in time. Remember, the most severe downturn in the economy has only occurred over the past few weeks, although the signs and symptoms have been with us for a while now. Maybe it is because of this downturn that the sellers are hoping to make a few last minute extra bucks before everything goes down the tubes (although I pray it never gets quite that bad!). The flip side of this coin may well be that as people become more strapped for cash, more used/unused/excess tractors may come on the market and the sheer numbers will drive prices down. Time will tell. At least with the price of scrap tanking, too, perhaps not as many will end up being scrapped out.

Additionally, Marv and Steve both make excellent points that some people are finally starting to realize that the new throw-away crap just doesn't match up in the long run to some of the older, used but high quality machines of bygone days. This, too, puts some pressure on prices in an upward direction (the laws of supply and demand, as the econo-geeks call it, I believe).

TT, whom I admire and respect highly, makes a very interesting observation about "once the initial adrenaline rush wears off and knowledge and experience comes in to play, the 310-8's, 657's,and C-81's will give way to more "rare and desirable" models". Among the true collectors, I think TT's right. But I humbly submit there will always be a group among us who covet our newer (or should I say "younger") machines not only because they are such good value for the money, but also because we can work on them and still get OEM parts. I drool over the design of the RJ's and some of the round hoods, but I lack the tools and, perhaps more importantly, the fabrication skills to do these machines justice in terms of restoration and maintenance. So I've chosen the "maroon stripes" as my tractors of choice because I am within my own limits in repairing and maintaining them. I am NOT, however, actively looking for anything in the 200-series.... Nonetheless, those of us in the "newer tractor" category will continue to have some effect on prices as we try to expand or develop our herds.

So to what got this whole thread started, the pictures and descriptions of the tractor in question are impressive. I would be the very first to admit I couldn't judge its actual value because I'm still very new to this game and don't know squat about values. But one thing has crossed my mind, and I've seen examples of it before in this forum - if someone has a line on a machine and there's another member either close enough to it to check it out, or who may already know some history about the machine, or may have experience with that model, the seller, or potential problems, people in this place are wonderfully willing to share their knowledge and resources. And that's what makes this place the greatest!

Cheers!

Duff :USA:

[Duff 206]

T-Mo, can you please haul my last post across to this new thread?

Thanks!

Duff :banghead:

[T-Mo-(Moderator) 4,599]

T-Mo, can you please haul my last post across to this new thread?

Thanks!

Duff

Done.

[Brrly1 1,146]

Duff For being a youngster in this field. I think you are learning fast. Good Job!! Burly :horseplay: :horseplay: :horseplay: :horseplay: :horseplay: :horseplay: :horseplay: :horseplay:

[Rideawaysenior 25]

Well said.

[Duff 206]

Thanks, guys. I'm learning from some masters!

Duff

(and thanks for the move, T-MO!)

[linen beige 15]

Case in point I only have 1 pre 1970 ( 753 lol ) and its in the shop attic still awaiting reassembly only because I have no work for it.

Steve, I have a 702 with the HY-2 lift (It does have the steel lines intact.), dual ags, and a '61 dozer blade with no trip springs and a solid lift bar for down pressure. Set up your 753 this way and you'll find work for her! My 702 will push dirt, rock, snow, etc. all day on a tank of gas and I find myself using her more than all my other 'Horses combined. My 702 will get into spots none of my other workers will and your 753 with the tighter steering should do even better.

She mows pretty well too, although I must admit my 42 inch mulching Craftsman does better (Hey, at least it's Kohler powered!).

[bluetuna08 0]

Being incredibly new to the field of wheel horses, I guess that I have an odd or at least different perspective. I believe that what makes a tractor a collectors item is whether or not I will buy it for reasons other than plowing the garden, snow blowing the driveway, or moving dirt/rocks.

To collect something is to buy it with the idea of storing it away. Encarta defines collectable as: groups of items of a similar type that are acquired and saved as a hobby. In this case it does not matter what year as long as the intention is of storing it away as HOBBY.

In this manner we are all collectors. Aren

[bell 11]

Some great points fellas.... I don't look at the "value" of them, I go by how much I like the tractor.

Like TT said, I started out buying ANYTHING WH, if it was in my price range. I am now realizing which ones I like best... I wouldn't have done this, if I hadn't tried them all... lol

So, for me, I'm diggin' the round hoods... So, I'll most likely be thinning the herd, not to make a bunch of money, but to "replace" some of my tractors with more desirable (to me) ones.

I hate the way prices SKYROCKET on this stuff, so... If I'm ever guilty of pricing something too high, please send me a message and let me know. I'm pretty new to this, but I am starting to get a "feel" for what this stuff is actually worth. Usually not much, which is what makes this hobby great!

I'm coming into this hobby from offroading... where it is not uncommon to have $10k into a trail rig.

I have sold a few things, but I prefer to trade... It is more fun than selling, to me.

[TT-(Moderator) 1,162]

As a point of personal clarification, I consider most tractors built after 1973 to be "workers" - especially since the Attach-Matic makes it considerably easier.

The last generation of Horses (300/400/500 models) are by far the most "operator friendly" models and most of the remaining models are still serving their owners on a daily or weekly basis. My newest tractor is 18 years old and gets used year-round for anything I need. It is faded to pink, has rust, and is definitely not much to look at, but the Onan still runs like a top and the Eaton hydro is still as strong as it ever was. Although I have thought about doing a cosmetic restoration to the 416H, it will probably never happen. It deserves it just as much as any of its older siblings, but I don't have the time to tear it down if I need it once a week. (minimum) It gets serviced on a regular basis, and as long as it starts, runs, and does its job, it is more appreciated than any shiny tractor that will pass through my shop doors.

The proverbial "can of worms" will certainly be opened when it comes to personal preferences and what is considered collections. Truth be told, a collection does not have to consist of collectible models. (collectible in this case meaning low production, rare, or highly sought after models) It's all a matter of what the "collector" chooses to "collect".

Another thing to consider is original price vs. future value. Will a 310-8 or a 520H ever bring as much (or more) 50 years from now as it sold for new? I doubt it. (you never know though. )

I meant no offense to anyone in my previous post and am thrilled to see this many people enjoying Wheel Horses -- and I enjoy it even more when I see new owners realizing they just bought the BEST piece of lawn & garden equipment in the world! :horseplay:

[Brrly1 1,146]

AMEN to that TT!!! Burly

:horseplay: :horseplay: :horseplay: :horseplay: :horseplay: :horseplay: :horseplay:

[wh500special 2,262]

Interesting reading and great comments!

I am going to be a contrarian though....I think tractor prices have actually tanked. Sure there are exceptions that pop up, but the easy to find models (854, square hoods, C-series, etc) all seem to be running lower on eBay and elsewhere to me. Even a 520-8 went lower than I expected recently and it was in PA which has always seemed to me to be one of the higher priced areas for WH stuff.

I rationalize my position by assuming that most seasoned collectors already have the easy-to-find models so the demand is lesser for them. And economic concerns are affecting many people.

A couple years ago it seemed that you couldn't touch a running RJ35 for less than $1k. At this year's show there were a few available for well less than that and they were no sales.

520-H's seem to enjoy a pretty inelastic price point of around $1200-$1500. i guess their relative "newness" and usefulness keeps their values up. And I think many people - like me - see them as the ulitimate evolution of our favorite tractor design.

A few years ago I eBay'ed a nice 518H to a gentleman who drove to my home in IN from CT to pick it up. Sold for $800 as I Recall. This season an identical -perhaps nicer - example keeps popping up on eBay and the Indy craigslist for less and has had apparently no interest.

I know I am now upside down on several of my tractors, which kind of sucks since I had planned to move them out to add a few different models. But that's life.

Implement prices remain strong though. Especially wierdo stuff like 3pt hitches, D-tillers, and sickle bars. If gas wasn't $3.50 a gallon, who knows where the prices would go.

i really believe that - with some exceptions - the price peak occured a couple years ago. If the economy continues to spin down i think we are all going to be sitting on depreciating assets in our garages and barns. but, the point of a hobby isn't to make sense, it is to bring some enjoyment. So no matter what prices may do I think most of us - me included - can be satisfied with what we own and buy based on the enjoyment it provides...not the monetary value.

The explosion of this hobby on the internet has made things so much easier - and perhaps more expensive - than it used to be. When I started searching the net for likeminded WH nuts back in 1993/94 there was very little available (just ask Dustin DMESS). Now what a difference! back then if you needed a certain part/implement and your local dealerships were out of stock you pretty much ended your search right there. Now, I think few of us even consider checking with a dealership before heading online. Back then, some things weren't available at ANY price. How things have changed!

Since they don't make this stuff anymore the supply of all this stuff is fixed, so it is really a demand driven market. Recently I think the demand - and subsequently the prices - has started to wane a bit.

taking the road less travelled,

Steve

[CasualObserver 3,411]

I agree that the collector market has dropped a little bit in more recent times. I think that is partially because collectors are seeing more options on the market, and are holding out for the better specimens of models they're looking for, and partially because there are more tractors being made available. What at first looked like a very limited supply keeps growing as more and more old farms and barns are emptied of their contents. It is interesting to see how strong the implement and attachment side of the market is though. Those don't ever seem to get cheaper!

The other side of this is that general tractor prices are on the rise, driven partially by people who have a sense of nostalgia and want to hold on to a memory from the past, and partially by the hobby collector who just buys a tractor or two because they're fun to putt around on at home or tinker on in the garage. They're typically cheaper and more space friendly to the generation that is moving away from the farm than larger antique tractors, and just as, if not more than, rewarding to work on and enjoy. Traditionally parts are smaller and cheaper, and well as I mentioned, space is probably the biggest advantage. There's also a certain percentage of folks who are just tired of dealing with current stamped steel box store models and want the reliability of the older machines.

Nowadays buying a vintage garden tractor at an auction for $100 or less is a real challenge. Rising scrap prices, a growing number of parts machine vendors, tractor traders looking for a quick buck, and a growing population of suburban collectors and hobbyists are making it more difficult. Until recently, the majority of that last grouping, the growing population of suburban collectors and hobbyists, mainly stuck to buying their wares on ebay and through the local papers, and the parts machine vendors. Now they've realized that they too can buy cheaper tractors at the auction and are competing with the vendor they used to buy from. The end result there is they are driving up the vendor's buying price, thus driving up the vendor's selling price to the other collectors.

For those of us who have been around the auction circuit for more than the last two or three years of this garden tractor craze, I think anyone would agree, that generally, the prices have risen. Now don't get me wrong, you can still score some deals. But I think those are becoming more of a right place, right time kind of thing. I guess when all is said and done, as many have said in the past, a machine is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Location, condition, rarity... these are influences, but the final word is whether or not someone wants something enough to pay a price.

[catman81056 3]

Gas in Paxton is $2.99 right now. We'll have to see how long that lasts!!!

Implement prices remain strong though. Especially wierdo stuff like 3pt hitches, D-tillers, and sickle bars. If gas wasn't $3.50 a gallon, who knows where the prices would go.

Well that sure didn't work right.

[nhwheelhorse 0]

i too agree with you tt, i thought i had it all figured out and was one that bought more horses then i had space.the only thing is i intend to use them and a couple i put together and gave to relatives.but the one thing i want to put out there is i will not over pay for some thing i do not need nor will use.i actually idealize use and want your set up if i could get it.i use 90 percent of them on the land i have due to it being easier then getting out the backhoe.another thing is i want your knowledge. a couple of the tractors i have are sentimentle due to gramp and great gramp having.the other thing is if money got tight i still would not sell something for more then what i know it is worth. well i guess i will leave for a while. jeremy

[WH854 45]

Well guys ( Good Topic) You have said it all!

I agree with everyone. I,m learning a lot of stuff about Wheel Horse tractors

here :horseplay: keep up the good work

Chas From Butler Pa :horseplay: