Kholer KT17 - on a 86? WH 416-A

[Amanda B 1]

Hope you can help, I have a nice old tractor that frankly I am quite fond of,  its a 416-A 86 I think, Kholer horizontal shaft KT17QS motor in it..  purchased new by my father.. Runs like a champ.. In general... But,  Has one major recurring problem however, Starts to get harder to start as the season goes on..

I find I have to use the choke, turn it a few times.. to start it more and more..Then starts to have issues of running rough when hot and stalling under load or when the deck is engaged.. Till it finally starts hard, runs ok, but even cold engage the deck stalls..  

I don't know a lot about small engines, but been doing more and more reading online and youtube university    also seems to me, not that I am a expert.. but as it gets serviced when it finally just will not run underload  or when it really warms up runs like crap..  A simple service seems to fix it, so I like to figure out what it is that is causing this so I can just tune it? as the problem develops.. For the last couple of years, It develops this issue, Last summer like the ones before I sent it off to the local shop, gets a worked on.. comes back runs good again. but other than a vague ok normal service they never seem to say specifically what they did.. In the past I did things like replace the coil, replace the points.. replace the spark plugs, new fuel, fuel attitives.. mess a bit with the idle setting screws on the carb.. heck even try the run without the gas cap on thing..   still not quite right..  Give up.. send it off comes back running good.. 

 

This year would not start at all.. So.. went on a merry chase over the solenoid, and starter.. the number of bolts you have to remove just to get to the starter is insane BTW!  but I did get that figured out..  No help on getting the parts from the same shop.. one thing I have never done is "clean the carb"  so..     I pulled the carb checked the bowl, there was debris/rust corrosion in it,  anyhow, my carb cleaning consisted of.. sprayed the crap out if it with carb cleaner,, Gaskets look visually ok, but did not remove any of the pins etc..  shot cleaner though the bottom hole..  only..  put it back on seated the idle screws.. turned them out 2 1/2 turns started it up and it was surging and running really high(by sound) so did the internet search thing again.. suspect the "govener?"  "may" have something to do with it, however all I did to adjust it was loosen the retaining bold on the armature, (as I had to remove this to get the carb off..  then take some pliers gently turn the shaft coming out of the governor clockwise, it moved a tiny bit no resistance, tightened the bolt..  Now Running pretty darn nice..  let it warm up,  a tad.. all good,, then engaged the deck.. Stalled..

 

So.. Still have to turn it a few times and choke it a lot to get it started..  Sounds good running  but try to engage the deck Stalls..     I Don't believe their is any binding on the deck..  

 

anyone else found a similar quirk on these older models??     I know I must be missing something...I am convinced it must be something pretty simple too...  perhaps I really should do a full carb rebuild and proper clean?  I got a copy of the manual and see that I can change the sensitivity of the governer by moving the spring holes.. so perhaps that?   that may fix the under load issue, but still hard to start..   I don't want to mess with the governer to much as I really only have a little clue, and need to pick up a tach for sure so I don't over rev it..  but   any help for a complete novice with just enough courage to and not a lot of knowledge so I can get the Old horsey running on my own??    

 

 

 

 

Any suggestions?

 

 

 

 

[pfrederi 17,192]

OK  I think you have identified your problem the carb needs a real cleaning.  I would try that first and avoid changing the governor.  If it were a governor issue it wouldn't run better after each service and then act up again later.

(Incidentally if the motor is a KT17 then the tractor is most likely a 417A)  The 416 were single cylinder 8 speeds.

[boovuc 1,090]

Hi Amanda and welcome to Redsquare.

Two things to look at with your carburetor. The carb will need cleaning and don't mess with the governor going forward until the carb is cleaned out.

The other thing is the possibility of that carb needing the bushings replaced on the throttle shaft. I have a KT engine that is older than yours and like you, I had issues that couldn't be tracked down until I saw the play in that throttle shaft that allows extra air to enter the carb and mess things up. All the tweaking in the world on a carb with a bad throttle-shaft bushing will only make for a temporary fix and the KT 17 and KT19 carbs are notorious for this part wearing out over time.

 

One other thing...........the hard starting, particularly, after sitting a while between uses can be nothing more than fuel running back to your fuel tank. Between uses, shut the fuel valve off under the gas tank. (Remember of course to turn it back on before you fire it up).  

When you turn the fuel off, make sure you aren't leaking fuel from the valve before leaving. Sometimes when these valves aren't used for long periods, when they close, they leak and i don't want you filling your garage up with a flammable liquid vapor.

One more thing on fuel.............I would have hoped that your service dealer would have checked to make sure your getting proper amounts of fuel but that tractor is old and sometimes the mechanical fuel pump gets weak and will deliver fuel but not enough to sustain the engine under stress. (While working). That needs checked also if it wasn't already.

 

I don't want to give you too much stuff to look at but these things would be the first things to check as related to the symptoms you described. Good Luck! 

[Sparky-(Admin) 19,674]

I would say the carb needs a good soaking in a can of carb cleaner. It will need to be completely disassembled and dropped in the carb cleaner solution and left there for at least a full day. Then reassemble with a rebuild kit (new gaskets, needle, set etc...)

Mike.........

[chazm 412]

Can't add much more that already has been advised ,other than.....    WELCOME TO

[km3h 543]

A tractor that old has probably never had the fuel tank cleaned and the fuel lines replaced. While the gas is low in the tank, use a flashlight and give it a look. The fuel lines are probably hard and brittle. This will cause them to flake and all this stuff gets into the carburetor. Every old machine I get seems to have this problem. First thing I do is clean the tank and change the fuel lines. You will get dirty routing the fuel lines but it will be worth it. Your service man is probably cleaning the carburetor and spark plug which takes care of the problem for a few cuttings but with a dirty tank it will just get dirty again pretty soon. Clean the tank by removing the shut off valve and flushing it with water. Sit the tractor in the sun and let it dry out.

[km3h 543]

Dirty fuel tank and hard brittle fuel lines. Every old tractor I get comes that way. Your service man is probably cleaning the carburetor and changing the plugs or at least cleaning them and it starts and runs good so he is done. Let the fuel run low and use a flashlight to look in the tank. Bet you will find all kinds of stuff in there. The fuel line should be soft and pliable. If it is hard it is brittle and will flake off tiny bits and cause all kinds of carburetor problems. Remove the shut off valve on the bottom of the tank and flush out the tank with water. Let it sit a few days to dry out. I buy fuel line in 25 ft. rolls. It is less than a dollar a foot delivered. You will only need less than five foot. Don't forget to get new clamps. You will need four of them.

Welcome to the forum. Visit often and feel free to ask all the questions you want. These guys are the best and I suspect many sit by the computer just hoping someone will ask a question they can jump on. Don't forget to let us know if and when you solve this problem.

[Amanda B 1]

Thanks everyone,,,    I am going to soak the carb proper! try some of the other suggetions!.. 

[rwilson 128]

I always change fuel line and clean the tank when I get a new tractor unless it doesn't need it. Change the plugs, air filter, and fuel filter. I would also clean the fuel tank as mentioned above. clean the tank, change the fuel lines and fuel filter, and clean the carb. should be good to go. Good luck.

[Amanda B 1]

Well runs and starts like a dream now..     I am going to plan a winter project to replace the fuel lines I think, they look ok but are showing their age.. 

 

Running, AWSOME! but, when you engage the deck, dies... Sigh..  so not the carb, looked further.. discovered that the switch to the right of the battery, is either is faulty or not adjusted right?  This was a problem before, and they fixed it, but the part seems original to the tractor so not replaced last year.. so Adjustment or intermittent issue? .. ..   Got it running WITH the deck going  when I used the handmans secret weapon Duct tape to hold the switches down..  discovered had no throttle control with all the linkages hooked up correct..  Fooled with it more, perhaps that switch may have something to do with it?

 

No just a stupid thing..  I had the idlespeed screw out too far.. DUHH..   I taken the carb off so many times now Forgot to ajust that one darn screw..  Also nice clean shiny carb... would not start, NO spark.. discovered I loosened a wire.. 

 

Funny got to love the fix one thing, get another..   the battery clamp was also rusted, busted that so opps need a new one oh well..

 

So with that switch taped, closed, Runs first turn, runs great and was able to mow down the foot plus high grass in the lawn YAH!!!! Grass was kind of wet too..  This is why I love this tractor it really is a real work horse.. 

 

I don't like having  the safety switch bypassed for the deck (the seat switch has not worked for a while)  But before I try to remove it as the bolts are rusted to the tractor..  I want to see if I can find a replacement part before I try to remove it to clean the contacts etc.. just incase it breaks during removal..   or now going to have to play with it and see if it is just a an adjustment issue..  

 

But not to bad Running as well if not better than having a center work on it all for the cost of a solenoid....(oh and  a new battery bracket,, ) BUT also know now if and when it starts acting up what it needs!!    

 

Thanks... 

Edited June 5, 2014 by Amanda B

[KATO 115]

Here's a link to Toro's parts viewer...just type in your model ...example would be " 417"

and you will get choices, then select your particular model to view the manuals and or parts break downs.

you will be able to get parts from dealers or online with out any troubles.

 

AND to

[SousaKerry 500]

MAy not actually be your switch, there is a small strip of sheet metal that covers the switch and contacts the lever to depress the switch.  It may just need a little adjustment with a pair of pliers or a cresenthammer.  Also the switch can be screwed in and out to adjust it by adjusting the jam nuts.

[km3h 543]

There is a good bit of satisfaction from doing it yourself. Glad you stuck with it and got it done. I love my 416H. It really does a nice job on the grass.

[boovuc 1,090]

Glad your cutting grass again, Amanda! I agree..........fix the safety switch!

[Amanda B 1]

I give it a try.. Thanks!! 

[Amanda B 1]

Now I got it running and have a idea what to either tinker with and replace.. New gas lines.. the switch.. 

 Got to think about hey, time for a paint job..  as I been sanding rust spots and hitting them with rust prevention spray, so the machine is somewhat Camo   Tractor body is spotted with black..  The deck.. I only had some blue paint LOL.. but did  not want to at least stop the rust aint pretty but a proper repaint was always in the future I hoped.. 

 

Sad thing is been thinking of trying to really resto this tractor.. not parade perfect..   Now I am a little more comfortable working on it.. Got a winter project..     so see a lot of post in the future in other forums

[km3h 543]

That's the spirit. Take care of these old tractors and they last forever.

[Amanda B 1]

yeh no kidding...  the new stuff falls apart SO fast..   Oh well going to have some tip top machines in my garage..I hope   may be pretty darn poor my WH may look kind of funky.. but still runs and does the job..   

 

Its not pretty, but at least I am trying to keep the metal solid..  I am broke, so use what I got!  LOL