Nathanielperz 150 #1 Posted April 25, 2014 Hey everyone I am wondering since my starter/generator quit charging the battery, if I can run the old K301 with out the battery because my father says that there is a coil inside the engine that generates electricity for the spark once its running. Could I start it with a rope and run it with no battery or is it needed for the ignition? Thanks in advance, Nate Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmaynard 14,909 #2 Posted April 25, 2014 (edited) If your engine has a coil on the outside, it cannot run without a battery. Edited April 25, 2014 by rmaynard Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nathanielperz 150 #3 Posted April 25, 2014 Oh ok. Why is that Rich? Nate Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cleat 4,987 #4 Posted April 25, 2014 That means it has a battery ignition just like a car. Cleat Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nathanielperz 150 #5 Posted April 25, 2014 Oh ok thank you Cleat. Nate Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmaynard 14,909 #6 Posted April 25, 2014 There has to be a 12 volt power source to power the external ignition coil. In your case, the starter/generator supplies voltage to keep the battery charged, and the ignition coil is then powered by the battery. In the case of a magneto ignition which your father is referring to, the power is generated when the flywheel magnets pass by the magneto coil behind the flywheel, providing ignition to the engine. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nathanielperz 150 #7 Posted April 25, 2014 Can I use the magneto ignition with out the battery? Nate Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Desko 552 #8 Posted April 25, 2014 Yes you can if its a magneto Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nathanielperz 150 #9 Posted April 25, 2014 The coil is outside of the engine I don't know what the magneto is or what it looks like... Where would it be if I have it? Nate Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wheelhorse66 10 #10 Posted April 25, 2014 It would be under your flywheel cover it looks like brake pads on the flywheel it is just a little box with two flat looking pads on it the fly wheel runs on them but I don't think your engine has it Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nathanielperz 150 #11 Posted April 25, 2014 oh ok thank you all. Nate Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pacer 3,159 #12 Posted April 25, 2014 You can very quickly find out -- crank the engine with the battery and after engine is running smoothly disconnect the battery - if it dies... well theres your answer. With a fully charged battery, you can run the tractor for a good while just off the battery without the S/G, if you arent using any other drain like the lights. Just guessing, maybe 2 hrs? maybe more, anybody got a better guess on how long one might go on just on a charged batt?? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fordiesel69 214 #13 Posted April 25, 2014 I can see you are confused, and looking over the posts, I can see why. To keep it simple, there are two main ignition systems used on small engines; 1.) Magneto 2.) Automotive based coil & condenser. An engine with a magneto does not need a battery, it uses a magnetic field from the flywheel, or a rotor to generate electricity to power the magneto coil windings. These types of systems can also have points & condenser, or an internal capacitor discharge, but the power source is a rotating magnetic field coming from somewhere. To stop an engine like this, you typically ground the magneto to stop the current flow thru the rest of the parts. An engine with a coil & condenser, the electricity comes from a battery, and the power used is made up by an external source. For example a generator, alternator, or charging coil. For K series kohlers it was a starter generator on the early ones, and an under flywheel stator that would provide a minimal charging current on the later ones. To stop an engine like this the ignition switch simple cuts the 12v positive to the actual ignition coil. The ground side of the circuit is untouched. It is very hard to explain electricity. Without seeing examples, reading books, and working with it yourself, it can be super difficult to comprehend. I have found that most mechanics, and repair technicians have a very elementary concept of it. Even state of the art car dealerships employ a great number of technicians that do not understand. So do not feel left out if this is super confusing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fordiesel69 214 #14 Posted April 26, 2014 Also, some think a cheap option would be to just charge the battery before each use, and that it will run "long enough". The problem with this thinking is that lawn tractor batteriess are built very crappy as it is, and they will not tolerate very many charge / discharge cycles. Ebay has some cheap starter generators available, and if yours has failed, most likely the armature is still good, but the charging field coil is bad. This is a common failure as there is no cooling inside this generator. It was about $32 + labor to have mine repaired on my K181 when it stopped charging. All it needed was a charging coil. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cleat 4,987 #15 Posted April 26, 2014 The fact that most wheel horse tractors have a manual PTO will sure help the run time. An electric clutch will suck a battery down fast with no charging system. My old Simplicity had a starter generator on it and I was able to get a local starter repair shop to rebuild it for me. Cleat Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
