Raider 12 8 Speed Transmission help Please

[monsstr 35]

Good afternoon gentlemen,

 

This is my first post with hopefully many more posts to come later as I become more knowledgable.

 

A few years ago I bought my Raider 12. It was in excellent condition and I use it to plow snow, dirt and haul my trailer around the yard. On Monday as I was plowing the snow we received, all of a sudden the tractor stopped moving, no noise or anything, just stopped going but yet the drive pulley was still spinning. Today I removed the transmission from my tractor and I am able to turn the axle by hand and it will turn the drive pulley and then at some point it will make a noise like gear teeth running over the top of other gear teeth and the drive pulley wont spin as it should.

 

I am pretty good at many things, but I will be honest as I know nothing about transmissions. I wanted to inquire if there was anyone out there that was close to me that did this for a living or on the side that I could pay to just have it fixed properly. I would even be willing to ship it if that is what it takes.

 

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated as I am now snowed in with my vehicle sitting at the bottom of my road because I cant get up my driveway. lol And my loved tractor is in pieces in my garage. Its painful to even look at although I am going to clean up areas that I didnt have access to before.

 

Thank you for your time.

 

Rick

 

1968 Raider 12 8 Speed

Model 1-6231

Serial # 400410

Uni Drive # 2988185

Kohler K301 engine

[daveoman1966 3,612]

If original, your trans would be model 5060 which MAY have a limited-slip 10-pinion differential.  That differential is not as robust as the 8-pinion and I would suspect it to be the culprit.  I have worked on these before and I have many parts for it.  We are about 300 miles apart and thats a bit of a stretch for me to repair it. This is a schematic of the 5060 trans, with either differential setup, and the 10-pinion differential.

If you have further interest in parts, please contact me at this email:

daveoman@windstream.net

Edited February 6, 2014 by daveoman1966

[daveoman1966 3,612]

con

[monsstr 35]

Thanks Dave. I appreciate you replying back to me.

 

I was going to try to repair this myself but after looking at the schematic you supplied I do realize now that this is way beyond me.

 

I couldnt even figure out how to open the case after removing it from the tractor. lol Yes, not one of my brighter moments.

[stevasaurus 22,233]

Welcome to Red Square    Check out this manual...your 5060 transmission is in Section III.  It is a type of limited slip (Like Dave said)...but there is really no reason why you can not fix this yourself...and Dave said he had parts.  click on this link for the manual...open it with adobe Reader.

 

http://www.mywheelhorse.com/graphics/file/Transmissions/492-4004.pdf

 

We have a few good threads with how to pictures and videos if you decide you want to give it a try...we will walk you through it.    Click on this link for a pictorial...

 

Edited February 6, 2014 by stevasaurus

[TT-(Moderator) 1,128]

For your consideration:

 

I know the seller and he is a great guy!

That's about an hour away from you and has the heavier 8 pinion differential.

It would only require a different brake band and rod - which I would bet the seller has "in stock" - and you'd need to either cut a hole in the under-seat toolbox for a dipstick/fill tube, or plug that hole and install the oil fill pipe from the original transaxle.

[monsstr 35]

Thank you Stevasaurus and TT.

 

I just called Bill and the transmission has already been sold. Bill said they dont have power there due to the ice storm which I can believe as we were hit pretty good. A little bummed as I was hoping to put this one in and rebuild mine with a lot of guidance from everyone.

 

Guess I will try and dive in this weekend on this transmission and see what I can do my first time around.

 

Thanks

 

Rick

[stevasaurus 22,233]

Rick...take a look at this thread.  I do a rebuild on a 3 speed...not your trans, but it is the same without the hi/low gears.  Really, unless you need to clean out the trans and replace bearings, you just need to split the trans and pull out the differential.  Make sure you have the shallow side of the transmission down when you open it up.  ie..input shaft down and brake shaft up.  This is really not to bad to do with a few common tools. 

 

[monsstr 35]

Great video Steve! I have to say that I feel a little more comfortable doing this after watching both clips. Thank you for sharing that with me and for taking the time to make the videos.

 

Im hoping to open the case up tomorrow after work and see what is in there. I will take pictures and share with everyone and see what I should replace. I would like to do it right one time and run this beast for another 40 years give or take depending on my life span. lol

 

Rick

[sorekiwi 761]

Transmissions scare a lot of people because there are a lot of little parts in them. 

 

But they are really pretty easy, especially if you have the manuals and exploded diagrams beside you.  Once you've done the first one, you will wonder why you were afraid.

 

Good luck!

[monsstr 35]

Thank you for the support everyone. Very nice community here.

 

Im kind of looking forward to opening it up tonight and giving this a shot.

 

Here is a question I have, once it is open and I can see everything, how does one know what shold be replaced and what should not?

[stevasaurus 22,233]

Take a few pictures...post them here...we should be able to see what is good and bad.    You can also compare what you have with the pictures in the threads above.

[monsstr 35]

Good afternoon gentlemen,

 

I have finally found the time to work on my tractor. I currently have three things going in my garage, working on my car, my kids motorcycle and now my tractor. Its quite an adventure.

 

I watched your video Steve and while I liked the idea of the wine crate, I don't have one so I used a faux milk crate and cut one of the handles out to allow the shaft to slide through. Works quite well and is sturdy.

 

I took some photos of where I am so far in the process. I do not see any broken teeth so at this point I still don't know why it was jumping teeth like that. Here are the pictures. If I am not getting the proper shots please let me know.

 

I do have to say that I am a little disappointed in myself as I wanted to change the rear oil this fall and other things in life distracted me. No excuses though as this should have been one of the first things I did when I first purchased it years ago. The oil looked like brown runny pudding and Im sure that did not help anything.

 

Thanks

 

Rick

 

 

[monsstr 35]

Well, Im at a complete loss. No broken spindles no parts out of place that I can tell and everything looks healthy, even the needle bearings....

 

Im going to clean everything up, reassemble, put in some new gear oil and cross my fingers.

[TT-(Moderator) 1,128]

Did you check the differential for internal damage? (pinions, axles gears, etc.)

[monsstr 35]

Yes I did Terry.

 

I apologize as I wanted to post some pictures of that as well.

 

Keep in mind that it looks good to me, as I am just looking for anything broken or out of the ordinary.

 

I will post some pictures of it first thing in the morning as maybe one of you gentlemen will spot something that I have overlooked.

 

Thanks

 

Rick

Edited February 9, 2014 by monsstr

[stevasaurus 22,233]

Like Terry said...we think the damage is in the differential...you have to lift that out and open it.  If you lift it out and try to turn the axles, and you can't or you hear the grinding...you have found your problem.  Everything else looks OK.  Thanks for the picks. 

[sorekiwi 761]

That trans looks pretty clean inside compared to a lot of the ones I have seen!!

 

Have a look in the diff, since you haven't found any broken gears in the trans, or bad bearings or bad keys/keyways.

[daveoman1966 3,612]

Here are pics of the 10-pinion Differential, marked with likely 'failure' parts A (body) and B (spring).  There are two A (body) and they commonly crack.  I have also seen the spring (B broken and the broken piece of it tears up the pinion gears.  The spring END-GAP should be as shown in this pic.  (Note that the 2 thrust washers are not in these pics.)

NOTE... Use blue loctite on bolt threads when you put this differential back together.

Edited February 9, 2014 by daveoman1966

[monsstr 35]

Good morning all,

 

I took a few pictures of the differential and I looked at all the parts very closely especially the ones you noted for me Dave. There are no crack, no broken gears and the spring seems to be just fine. However, I do not have any thrust washers anywhere. Could this possibly be the issue?

 

If you want to to see something specific in a picture please let me know.

 

However that being started, that would have to mean they weren't in there since I owned the Tractor and it has run fine for all of these years. Why would it be an issue now.

 

I do apologize as my tool to remove E clips is missing the one side and I cant seem to find it in my tool box. I really need a bigger tool box.

 

Anyhow, again any feedback would be appreciated.

 

Thanks

 

Rick

 

 

[monsstr 35]

Just a quick update. I cleaned everything up and went over it thoroughly. Found the washers stuck to the outside of the axle gears  so Im good there. 

 

So once again I am lost and just cant find an explanation for why the transmission wasn't working properly. Im going to start reassembly unless someone sees something that should be replaced. I did not see anything that I thought looked bad other then the gasket between the case sides. Im willing to replace whatever anyone thinks I should while it is apart.

 

Rick

[TT-(Moderator) 1,128]

Did you have anything else apart? Did you happen to try to move (drive) the tractor in low range before you removed the transaxle?

If you haven't already been there, I'm thinking you should check the internal splines of the high/low sliding gear and the corresponding outside splines on the input shaft.

I'd hate to see you have to tear it apart again.

[monsstr 35]

Good evening,

 

Terry, yes I did try it in high and low before I started removing the transmission. I was swamped at work today so I didn't get a lot of time to look closer at everything, but Im hoping maybe tomorrow to be able to do so. I didn't even realize that there were internal splines.

 

Other then the tranny I have had nothing else apart on this tractor.

 

I took two pictures of the outer high low teeth and they look perfect.

 

Again I just wanted to thank everyone for their assistance on this issue. I have learned a lot so far, and its a good feeling.

 

 

[TT-(Moderator) 1,128]

The gear in your pictures is the high/low cluster gear.

My area of concern is the inside of the sliding gear that inserts into the fork in your pictures and the narrow splines on the input shaft that drives the sliding gear. When the transmission is in high range, the sliding gear is what locks the mainshaft into "direct drive", bypassing the high/low cluster gear.

 

The internal splines of the sliding gear:

 

The splines on the input shaft:

 

In high range, the sliding gear locks the input shaft and bypasses the reduction cluster gear:

 

In low range, the power is directed through the reduction cluster gear:

 

The splines that get locked by the sliding gear:

 

Beyond damage to those splines - and if there is no obvious damage elsewhere - I can't think of anything that would cause the symptom(s) you described.

[monsstr 35]

Terry, Thank you for the excellent pictures. I cleaned and verified everything from top to bottom and finally decided to just put it all back together correctly and see what happens.

 

Due to an upcoming storm, which it just started snowing here in NE PA and we are suppose to get 10-12" tonight, I felt a rush to get this back together. I started the reassembly around 5pm est and just finished now. I took my time, used pictures I took and the manual that was shown to me. I cleaned everything and actually put it back together. Once the tranny was assembled, I started reassembling the tractor itself, taking my time cleaning along the way and making sure everything was correct.

 

Long story short....the beast is back in business! Im excited that I put the tranny back together and it actually works. lol I believe there were some factors that contributed to what was happening but I believe the biggest was very old and low tranny fluid. Im glad I took the tranny apart because I was able to clean it properly and Im sure it appreciate the new fluid.

 

I would like to thank everyone that gave me guidance on this project. I would not have had the courage to do it without the support. I joined the forum for a year because I wanted to give something back.

 

I can say without a doubt that the old Wheelhorse tractors are unstoppable if taken care of. I actually think this summer I am going to disassemble and repaint, just because it deserves it.

 

I attached a pic of the reassembled tranny and my beast ready to go tomorrow morning!  I say bring on the some tonight as we are ready.

 

Thanks again all!!!!