Would Toro ever sell Wheel Horse?

[scraper 4]

I wonder if Toro ever had any offers for the WH division, and if they did would they sell it. Do you think they would ever sell all the parts manufacturing machinery to someone to make a buisness out of. I would love to see Wheel Horse come back.

[Sparky-(Admin) 19,579]

I suppose for the right price anything is for sale. But the big question is....."Would the new owner be able to make money selling the classic Wheel Horse line again"? 

  I hate to say it but probably not. The majority of homeowners just wont shell out the almost 6K for a tractor with a 42" mowing deck when there are plenty of choices (less quality of course) for less money.

  I love the WH brand but have never bought a brand new one and probably never would just because of the cost. I don't thing just making and selling parts would be lucrative enough to cover the investment of buying the WH brand.

  I also think that the new Wheel Horse would not have the old tried and true motors we all love, but rather an EPA restricted OHV all aluminum motor that would not last or perform like the K series and Magnum Kohlers.

  Hate to be the bearer of bad news.....only my opinion of course.

Mike............

[JC 1965 1,528]

Yea !!  I hate to say it but I think Mike is right. If  ever did come back they would want to make them in China.  

[sscotsman 132]

Lets hope Toro does *not* ever sell the Wheel Horse brand!

If it did, we would probably end up with junky low-quality wheel horses made in China..

Its much better to have the name "retired" properly..

 

Scot

[RMCIII 838]

Well, but here is another spin, to that scenario. So, Toro makes the "cheaper" brands, just like all the other big names, but if they brought back the WH, then it could compete with the tractors that are also selling for the $5k- $7k range. It's working for Deere, Cub, Simplicity, MF...

[shallowwatersailor 3,213]

MTD dropped the Cub Cadet 3200-series just before their anniversary year. The largest tractor that they make today is the 2500-series . Simplicity (B&S) still produce the Legacy which is comparable to a SCUT. It has enough powertrain options for the upper end market, including the Daihatsu 3-cyl diesel, that was also used in the Toro Wheel Horse 523Dxi.

 

The SCUT has taken over the market where Wheel Horse traditionally sold. There is not much price difference between a Kubota BX1870 and where a present day Wheel Horse would sell. Add in the strength of 0% financing (not really but looks good in print) plus the SCUT used market, there would be no point. JD depends quite a bit on name brand recognition and dealer network just like Trane does in the HVAC market.

[Dual Drive Horse 6]

There is a rumour in the UK trade that Toro intend to Sell a tractor built in eastern Europe under the Wheelhorse name to compete with the likes of the Legacy and the Kubota. Though said rumour is now over a year old without any sign of anything happening.

[RMCIII 838]

Wheel Horse SCUT what is wrong with that? Toro, believe it or not, actually is the leader for Greens Keeping. I use to work for Jacobson a while back. Toro was out selling us 2 to 1, and their products were more expensive than Jacobson. Some of that knowledge could be utilized for a SCUT line. Granted, at 1 time they did have issues with the transmission, on the fairway machines. But they got it worked out.

[boovuc 1,090]

Well Wheelhorse really doesn't exist anymore unless Toro still offers "something" with it on. (Don't know). The Wheelhorse name and trademark along with all their patents are owned by or licensed by Toro.

Some entity would need to offer to "buy" the Wheelhorse "brand" from Toro or...............if Toro was bought by, say a Chinese company, most likely the WH brand, trademarks and licensing would also be in the new owners hands. We all saw Chinese, Japanese and Korean manufacturers by American "brands" and trademarks to market electronics in the USA that were made off shore.

RCA isn't RCA. Admiral wasn't Admiral. Philco isn't Philco, Packard Bell "wasn't Packard Bell, Thinkpads were IBM, now they are made by Lenovo. etc. etc.

IMHO: It is possible that a "Wheelhorse" brand lawn & Garden line could be reborn but it is highly unlikely it would be made in the USA and I would bet it would be junk.

[Tankman 3,515]

Hate to agree with most of the negative above but, I do.

 

We'll never see the Horses we love so much. Sorry, it is what it is.

 

The Wheel Horse brand is history and, a great one.

[leeave96 487]

IMHO, if Toro was going to go the MTD made, Toro badged route after the demise of the Wheelhorse tractors, they did the old brand name a favor by retiring it.

 

Getting on my   ...

 

I'm not so sure I'd want Toro designing a new Wheelhorse, be it a compact tractor or even another 5xi.  While I REALLY like the 5xi tractors, in some ways Toro botched it.  The tractor didn't have a locking diff - like Deere or Cub Cadet or Simplicity would offer in their offerings and the tractor was not compatible with prior "classic" Wheelhorse implements.  I am to understand the implements wouldn't fit outright or needed some kind of kit to make them work from a "classic" tractor.  This was important because every buyer doesn't have deep enough pockets to buy the tractor and all new implements.

 

My view is that Toro struggled to build a garden tractor - which is why they bought Wheelhorse in the first place.  Same with Lawnboy.  I've got my Dad's old Toro Commercial self propelled push mower with Suzuki engine.  This mower is LOVED by just about everyone in the mowing industry and collectors - but the only reason I've got it is - it belonged to my Dad.  The Suzuki engine is good, but IMHO under powered.  The mower is a recycler with a funky wrap around to the rear discharge chute.  The %^*())(*%$ thing clogs ALL of the time!  IMHO, this Toro designed push mower is a bad design - it's just very heavy duty.  I would take my Lawnboy or Snapper push mowers all day long if I had to shell out $$$'s for a new push mower.

 

I think Wheelhorse accounted for 20% of Toro's production when they bought them and 25% of their revenue.  While I appreciate Toro maintaining the basic design to the bitter end, but in the end, they fell behind the competition and exited the market.  Lawnboy.  I seem to recall that Lawnboy had a 67% repetitive rebuy coustomer base.  In other words, 2 out of 3 Lawnboy users would buy another one when the time came to buy another push mower.  Toro pretty much ended that brand.  Sure they exist in box stores, but are just another stamped deck with a cheap engine on it.

 

I might be wrong here, but I think Toro bought Xmark to get into the zero turn mower market.  Not sure why this was necessary, but my guess is Toro couldn't come up with a design of their own.

 

I say all the above to say this:  IF Toro were to come out with another Wheelhorse, unless they just cranked out the "classic" tractors, I don't think they could get it right.  IF Toro were to sell the Wheelhorse design, name, etc., lock stock and barrel, who knows who would buy it and what would they do with it.  You can still buy a Homelite and McCulloch chainsaw, but in name only.  I would fear this of Wheelhorse.  With this, I would hope Toro would do one of the two options:

 

1.  Keep the Wheelhorse tractors dormant, but keep making spare parts.

 

2.  Revisit the Wheelhorse "classic" design for production - to compete against the high end Deere, Cub Cadet and Simplicity tractors.

 

 

My idea of a competitive Wheelhorse is this:

 

1.  Foot controlled hydro.

2.  Enclosed engine compartments.

3.  Enhanced front axle, like the 520H's swept forward axle for an even tighter turning radius.

4.  Advertise, advertise, advertise!!!!!

5.  Label the tractors WHEELHORSE.  Leverage the brand name and history.

6.  Compatibility with "classic" Wheelhorse implements.

 

I can think of much more, but my fingers are getting tired...

 

Bottom line - I hope Toro wouldn't sell the Wheelhorse and just leave things as they are.

 

OFF MY 

 

Thanks!

Bill

[JimmyJam 516]

Toro has already said that they are not gonna be in the Wheel Horse parts business! Look at how many parts are "No Longer Available"! If the part is available, then look at the price! I think China (Asian countries) will continue to dominate the market. Look at John Deere! Many parts from Asian Countries!!!! IMO: I think all members of Red Square should donate $50-$100 as a collaboration to buy out Toro and go grass-roots, like the Ponds did, and build a decent America-made "Classic" Tractor!!!! Amen!!!

Edited August 11, 2013 by JimmyJam

[DoctorHfuhruhurr 132]

If there was any money to be made from Wheelhorse, Toro would have kept producing it, or sold it off.  The brand is dead and not likely to be revived.  

[Retired Wrencher 4,880]

I suppose for the right price anything is for sale. But the big question is....."Would the new owner be able to make money selling the classic Wheel Horse line again"? 

  I hate to say it but probably not. The majority of homeowners just wont shell out the almost 6K for a tractor with a 42" mowing deck when there are plenty of choices (less quality of course) for less money.

  I love the WH brand but have never bought a brand new one and probably never would just because of the cost. I don't thing just making and selling parts would be lucrative enough to cover the investment of buying the WH brand.

  I also think that the new Wheel Horse would not have the old tried and true motors we all love, but rather an EPA restricted OHV all aluminum motor that would not last or perform like the K series and Magnum Kohlers.

  Hate to be the bearer of bad news.....only my opinion of course.

Mike............

Mike to your point I am 1/2and 1/2.I have been thinking of this for a while. If I ever hit the lottery this is  one of the things I would take up my some of my time. It would only be buy orders. Hey I would have the $$$ so it may be a loosing effort at 1st but that would be figured in. Also I like the parts Idea. I think there would be a search to find a parts vender at first. I think I would start with mid size at first. Say around 10hp. But it would have to be U.S.A. parts if I would ever do it. I know its a dream but hey we all dream of some thing in life. Gary   B.....

[Racinbob 10,296]

Interesting comments and opinions. I can't agree or disagree with any of them. I would love to see the real Wheel Horse return but I don't see it happening. Few people can see or appreciate the difference from a big box junk deere. I've posted before about the herd I had in Indiana then our move down here, buying a green 120 and then finally finding an 05 Classic GT and giving the 120 away. What folks see in the green is a 20hp twin with a 48" deck and automatic tranny. Price was just over $2,000 new. I believe the final MSRP for the last of the real Wheel Horses was about $5,000. 15hp one lung, 42" deck and manual tranny. Most think it's a no brainer and buy the green. Few down here in Florida have ever heard of a Wheel Horse. They have never marketed the way they should in my opinion. I looked for months within a 200 mile radius and Wheel Horses are scarce down here. When I finally found one about 125 miles away I jumped on it. The guy said $1200. Yes, I know they can be found up north for less. When my wife and I made the drive I looked it over and it was a bit rough but I knew I could easily save it. I told my wife to pay him and he took off $200 without me asking because it needed new belts and general fixing up plus we drove a long ways. New belts, new seat, real Wheel Horse steering wheel, repaint the black area on the front of the hood, remove the stupid hydralic damper on the clutch as well as most of the interlocks (a key to mow in reverse!?!?) and some other tweaking and it's now a fine machine. The engine is a Command but it runs great and there's under 200 hours on it. It works circles around the green thing.

 

Am I rambling?

[RMCIII 838]

Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow. Seems that just "thought" of even bringing WH back is a very touchy subject. Dissecting some of the content above, and I will, leaves me to say this. Toro is a great product, just like all brands, they have had issues. There is not 1 true JD fan that does not HATE the Lowes/HD line of what is so called Garden Tractors. Same goes for CC, and now Troy-Built. < As we all know, the reason for these product lines, was to capture a multitude of revenue that was being overlooked. Personally, as I am sure most of us would in here, I laugh to myself when I hear conversations about neighbors talking about their "NEW" JD garden tractor.  Most of these owners are in the middle 20's to early 30's/. My guess is, they never were around a true GT and only had heard individuals talk about them. So, they needed to purchase one also. JD sells, just by the name. I'm not a huge fan of JD, but the simplicity of their servicing and parts sure made it simple to order parts for my 212 that was a 1980 model. Much of what WH did wrong, and Toro followed suite was how they mfgd. the tractor itself. SERVICE> T&S is the largest supplier in the Cleveland area, there is only 1 person, the owner, that knows how to search the parts data base for the xi line. I have to ask for him specifically or I just get a complete run around from the service manager. WH had some many different parts being utilized, it was hard to keep track of all parts available. Options were good back then, but no one saw how large the data base would need to be in order to keep parts available. JD's parts are simple, can be used on several models, and will probably never run out.

 

Bill, hate to disagree with the one paragraph about WH capturing 20% of the Toro Production and 25% revenue. < At best the WH line would have given Toro a 10 to 12% increases in production when they purchased WH> Toro's name was already well versed in Greens mowers. Their product line, back then, was extensive. Green mowers, fairway mowers, rough mowers, aerators, park mowers, ect.. Toro, like any smart company, saw a need to market GT's/ they looked at WH saw the product line was very good and made an offer. Here is the kicker, SERVICE> Toro was not banking on the extensive, wait, VERY EXTENSIVE, line of parts they would need to produce to keep the old line running. Again, WH's only drawback to the tractor, way too many parts for each model. Making searching a data base, or even keeping something available for each model, you would have to have a warehouse to keep the parts. I know we have several service manuals in here, but has anyone ever seen the difference between the "FISH" for a JD vs. WH? It is unbelievable. If I had to guess, nearly 4 to 1 WH/ how can you keep up with simplicity when it would take building a bigger sales/service building just to keep parts on hand for every model they make.

 

Getting back to main question, if the WH line does not come back, it is not because Toro would botch it. It's because of what it would represent. If they did bring the line back, then quite probably, they would need to look at re-mfg. all the parts for the line. <HUGE costs involved here. Toro, guaranteed, would get the WH name right/. The reason why they bought it was because of the reputation/name WH had made for itself. If it were just looking to purchase a GT line, they could have picked up Sears for a whole lot cheaper, and they still would be pushing the line. Like all Mfg.s companies, they all produce great quality lines, and some that are not so great. Just like the industry I am in. Everyone likes to tell me about their home entertainment system they have once they find out I am in the Audio-Video field. Hate to break it to them, but the Best Buy products they purchased, even though some have the same name, do not represent the same longevity, quality that the commercial a/v equipment used by my company. I hate having those discussions. But, for what Best Buy has given the consumer, it is a decent product. They stand behind it and for the most part lasts a modest amount of time, before needing replaced.  Sorry WH members, did not think I would go that long. As Bill said earlier ,time to get off this  .

[Racinbob 10,296]

RMCIII, I agree 100% that real JD, and CC owners must hate the big box junk. 'Real' John Deeres are fine machines. The last thing I'd want to see is a new Wheel Horse line at the local Lowes/Home Depot. You have excellent points and, while I tagged the 120 I has a junk deere I'd never knock the real thing. I should have elaborated more.

Also, your comments concerning the electronics are interesting. I've heard that before. I tend to agree but I'm not knowledgable on the subject. But I have noticed that the model numbers on the Best Buy stuff seems to always vary, even by just one letter, from the manufacturers model number. I always wondered.

[MalMac 1,328]

After reading all the post on this subject so far, I would have to say they all have good points about them, One thing that was not really mention was the topic of which I hate. That topic is the world in which we live now is a disposable one. For the most part people live in a fast past world now and don't want anything that is built to last, oh they say they do and when their cheap big box store tractor breaks they complain. They don't want to take time to fix it. Just throw it away and get another. They just keep on doing it over and over. There are only in the big scheme of things a handful of people such as the people on this forum that really see the difference. Unfortunately there is just no place for the Wheel Horse anymore. Very Sad indeed that it has come to this but us few have very little say against those many of the ignorant that can't see quality over junk.

[JC 1965 1,528]

Not only do most people want to buy throw away lawn tractors, they want to do that with everything. Also it seems that most people aren't interested in learning to fix things any more.Wow can you pass on a skill to a child if you don't know how to do it yourself. I am amazed at wow many people that don't know how to change the oil in their car or truck. I think it's a sad time for our country. ( Sorry I get carried away on this subject ).  

[scraper 4]

JimmyJam has the right idea. We should get together as consumers and buy wheel horse. The employees of Vermont Castings wood stoves just bought they're company.Also, if there are any business people out there, how much money would it cost to buy the wheel horse division off of Toro.

Edited August 11, 2013 by scraper

[Retired Wrencher 4,880]

After reading all the post on this subject so far, I would have to say they all have good points about them, One thing that was not really mention was the topic of which I hate. That topic is the world in which we live now is a disposable one. For the most part people live in a fast past world now and don't want anything that is built to last, oh they say they do and when their cheap big box store tractor breaks they complain. They don't want to take time to fix it. Just throw it away and get another. They just keep on doing it over and over. There are only in the big scheme of things a handful of people such as the people on this forum that really see the difference. Unfortunately there is just no place for the Wheel Horse anymore. Very Sad indeed that it has come to this but us few have very little say against those many of the ignorant that can't see quality over junk.

It is Sad that MalMac is right. We are Not Americans anymore we are a product of our environment. every thing is so easy now just go down the street and find what u need at the big box store. Wall Mart Lowes  Snob Depot has changed our life for ever. but I say again if I ever run into Millions $$$  I would try to change that..... Gary     B,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[RMCIII 838]

I'll leave this discussion with this 1 final thought.... Toro's name, in the Golf and maintenance industry, hands down #1. When I worked for Jacobson, they were outselling us 2 to 1. I would guess that it is probably now 3 to 1, and Deere has it's product line in the Golf industry also. When Deere first entered this area, the mowers were JUNK.. We took some apart, just to see what they were made of. Absolutely terrible. At 1 time, you could not give them away, now, they are doing ok in this area. But Toro still ranks #1. You don't keep that rating by building products that won't last and are continually breaking down. I'm sure they would do it right, if they were to ever, bring the WH line back. Happy Dreaming all.

[truckin88 104]

Is ingersoll still around making super garden tractors based on the Case 400 series? Wonder if they are making money?

[truckin88 104]

Another problem with this, jobs have become so demanding and 24/7 due to technology that a good number of people making the money to afford a new WH hire landscapers.

[Challenger 27]

Is ingersoll still around making super garden tractors based on the Case 400 series? Wonder if they are making money?

  The wholesale parts end of their business may have been sold to another company.  I'd guess that parts sales would have been the more profitable part of the business.

 

Some Ingersoll dealers have brand new machines in stock that were built more than 5 years ago.  Then again, not long ago some Wheel Horse dealers still had a new tractor in stock too.  (And may still have.)

Edited August 12, 2013 by Challenger