Breakerless Ignition coil? on a K321s (GT14)

[Machria 77]

Hi,

I'm trying to tune up me new to me GT14, which has the K321s motor in it, with the breakerless Ignition coil (at least that is what it looks like per service manual comparison).

I tested the ignition coil per the service manual with a Ohm meter, and it is reading 10,500 ohms, the manual said it should "read about 11,500 ohms. It also said it should NOT show continuity between the ignition switch wire and the mounting bracket, mine does.

So I assume I need to replace it. Where do I get this part?

Thanks in advace for the help!

[Brrly1 1,146]

Hey it's me again going to make a suggestion but I would omit that coil and the rest of the parts to the electronic ignition and get the plunger, points, condenser, coil point cover and everything else that you will need. You'll be a Happy camper that you did. There's the small piece inside the flywheel shroud (trigger) that cost alot, somewhere around a $150 if not higher. Like I say only a suggestion

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

If the trigger is good, you could sell off the trigger and probably finance your upgrade to a standard coil ignition setup.

[Trouty56 565]

I echo John's statement above about the conversion to a point system. I can't tell you if there is a market for a trigger or not.......I guess you could have it handy in case someone needed it badly. The sale will be more profitable in that case.

[Machria 77]

Isn't it pretty complicated to do that? I'm good with wiring/electrical, but would I need some mechanical changes to make that work for timing or soemthing...?

Any how to's for doing that?

[Trouty56 565]

Look for 5 holes on the front bottom left of the engine above the oil pan.....looking from the front

Edited February 16, 2013 by Trouty56

[Machria 77]

Look for 5 holes on the front bottom left of the engine above the oil pan.....looking from the front

I'll look for them tomorrow morning, .... but, why am I looking for them? Is this a secret hunt of some sort? :)

[Trouty56 565]

No...you want to know how to convert to points. This is the area to begin. Jdog had a GT14 that was breakerless and the area that points would go was all drilled and ready. Just want you to check to see if yours is.

[Brrly1 1,146]

Trouty, I am sure the hole already exsists. All K model Kohlers have all the same machining. There

might be like a 3/16 freeze plug there but that would be the only thing. Take a punch and drift it thru. No drilling necessary

[rockinhorse 45]

Marchria I had a 12 hp kohler with breakerless ignition also. I converted over to points and the engine has a lot more spark now and seems to run better. The guys on here helped me with mine. Conversion was easy and found all the local. Save old Iron has a wiring diagram that helped me . The 5 holes in engine block is where the plunger pin goes and the 4 screws that hold the points and points cover on to block. Good luck your engine will run a lot better

[Machria 77]

Marchria I had a 12 hp kohler with breakerless ignition also. I converted over to points and the engine has a lot more spark now and seems to run better. The guys on here helped me with mine. Conversion was easy and found all the local. Save old Iron has a wiring diagram that helped me . The 5 holes in engine block is where the plunger pin goes and the 4 screws that hold the points and points cover on to block. Good luck your engine will run a lot better

Thanks, you guys have me "thinking" about attempting it, $212 for a coil on a tractor I only paid a little more for, is crazy. The wiring willl not be a problem for me, I'm great with electrical/wiring. The mechanical part (if any) is another story! I can't even figure out how to fix/replace/adjust my linkages which look to be a mess/sloppy/loose. Can you direct me to the wiring diagram?

Thanks guys....

[Trouty56 565]

Any battery ignition wiring diagram from the 70's should work for you.....might not have all the safety switches but the basics are the same. SOI will most likely make a cool pictorial for you. I should capture them and keep them handy cause they are really neat. I'm not sure if you need a different switch or not. Maybe...

Edited February 17, 2013 by Trouty56

[Machria 77]

Any battery ignition wiring diagram from the 70's should work for you.....might not have all the safety switches but the basics are the same. SOI will most likely make a cool pictorial for you. I should capture them and keep them handy cause they are really neat. I'm not sure if you need a different switch or not. Maybe...

 

Which "switch" are you referring to?

[Trouty56 565]

Any battery ignition wiring diagram from the 70's should work for you.....might not have all the safety switches but the basics are the same. SOI will most likely make a cool pictorial for you. I should capture them and keep them handy cause they are really neat. I'm not sure if you need a different switch or not. Maybe...

 

Which "switch" are you referring to?

Ignition switch....

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

Any battery ignition wiring diagram from the 70's should work for you.....might not have all the safety switches but the basics are the same. SOI will most likely make a cool pictorial for you. I should capture them and keep them handy cause they are really neat. I'm not sure if you need a different switch or not. Maybe...

SOI is sleeping right now - but will have something for you very soon.

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

let's see if this fits the need

[Machria 77]

let's see if this fits the need

Perfect, thanks so much! I can knock that out in 10 minutes. The only thing I don't understand is, how does the coil/points get the timing of the motor? Doesn't there need to be some kind of connection of the points to the motor flywheel or something? Man, been a l-o-n-g time since I've had to deal with a non electronic motor of any kind. Unfortunitely, the memories are long faded...

Do you have a part number for the points?

Again, thanks a million.

[ol550 825]

Just believe and it will work.   The point push rod will contact the points lobe on the camshaft.  Timing can be changed by changing the point gap.  Only problem is paint and or rust in the four screw holes in the block..

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

The much talked about 0.020" points gap is to be considered a starting point for timing a K series engine. When an engine is in "like new" condition, it just happens that a 20 gap gets the spark off at the right time in the compression cycle of the engine. It all just MECHANICALLY WORKS OUT THAT WAY.

 

What you are ultimately trying to achieve is to have the spark initiated at the plug gap when the "S" timing mark on the flywheel passes the timing mark inspection hole in the flywheel cover. If the spark occurs at the passing of the "S" mark on the flywheel, and the points gap happens to be 0.017" or 0.023" when this happens

 

WHO CARES !! 

 

The spark is happening at the correct instant in time. Having said that, the gap being way off or timing being way off indicates incorrect mechanical tolerances of the camshaft or points push pin or incorrect engine assy (cam / crank timing off).

 

The spark happens the instant current flow thru the ignition coil is shut off (when the points open), The points open when the camshaft lobe pushes the points pin into the points and causes the contacts on the points assembly to physically separate. If the cam lobe wears, or the points push pin wears, or the material on the points contacts wear thinner, the cam shaft has to travel a few degrees further to reach a higher spot on the cam lobe in order to achieve the same movement in the push pin to open the contacts of the points. (On second thought, let me think about thinner points contact material.That may actually counteract the worm pin, worn cam issue)

 

Anyway,

 

When the cam has to travel further to a higher spot on the lobe to open the points, the crankshaft has also moved a corresponding distance further up into the compression cycle. This extra movement of the piston prior to spark initiation causes the spark to happen later than the ideal moment and you have decreased the "advance" in the spark timing. Engine performance suffers.

 

You can either set the 20 gap of the points and keep your fingers crossed, or .

 

do a static multimeter resistance check of the points opening vs "S" mark on the flywheel, or

 

perform a dynamic check with a timing light thru the flywheel inspection port. The "S" mark should be visible when the timing light flashes on.

 

Both the static and dynamic checks will be in close agreement with one another, ultimately any differences between the two being swallowed up by your ability to set and tighten down the points without affecting the setting.

 

The 20 thou gap, in my mind, is a "let's get the darn thing fired up before we go any further" temporary setting of the points. The engine will run at this setting, but will start and run MUCH better at the correct static or dynamic setting.

 

My personal choice is the ignition saver electronic replacement for mechanical points. I think 5 years from now as parts quality continues to suffer, electronic ignition replacement for points will be the only sane alternative for trouble free, reliable cold weather starting. Get busy understanding the technology now. It will be a part of the future of this hobby.

[Trouty56 565]

Sometimes the TDC and S marks are very difficult to see (and in a couple cases for me never found).  However, If the TDC mark is there the S mark is 20^o clockwise on the flywheel.  This equates to 1 1/2 inches on a 9.5 inch diameter flywheel.  I guess if the TDC mark is difficult to find then the head will need removed to find the TDC.  Once found paint the S mark for future reference.

 

Disclaimer....As with most of my technical posts I may be full of bunk so unless this is confirmed by someone with better knowledge please disregard.......

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

This equates to 1 1/2 inches on a 9.5 inch diameter flywheel. 

 

1.658 inches to be exact .... if the flywheel is exactly 9.5 inches in diameter.

 

1.5 inches would put you at about 18 degrees advanced (mathematically).

[Trouty56 565]

I rounded the decimal fraction of 20^o to 360 as .05 instead of .055555555 and on and on.  Makes a difference!!  

[In search of wheel horse 1]

On 2/16/2013 at 5:46 AM, Save Old Iron said:

If the trigger is good, you could sell off the trigger and probably finance your upgrade to a standard coil ignition setup.

Did you get rid of the trigger ignition coil? I’m looking for one

[ineedanother 1,365]

47 minutes ago, In search of wheel horse said:

Did you get rid of the trigger ignition coil? I’m looking for one

@Machria was last on this site in April of last year so you might want to post in the classifieds "wanted" section. Try to make your title succinct so folks will recognize what you are looking for and not miss it.