HH100 running, not charging

[condo630 6]

I have an HH100 in my Raider 10 that runs rather well, but does not charge the battery. If I hang onto this tractor, I want to swap in a Kohler eventually.

My inclination is to repair the charging system with used parts and run the Tecky until I have money to pick up a decent K241 or 301. Or at the very least, disconnect the charging system and use a Battery Tender when it is not in use. I will also have to spend some money on the mower deck and PTO clutch.

I know that the solid state ignition on these is virtually impossible to replace.

I have a few questions:

Are there people who would buy a running HH100 for decent money? I don't know a whole lot about these motors - do they have a loyal following anywhere? What is a realistic price for one?

How hard is it to repair the charging system? Is it worth doing? They don't give those parts away either, but I think I can get used ones.

What will it take to swap in a 10 or 12 horse Kohler?

[linuxrunner 0]

Swap on points/condenser, easy to find, easy to tune and CHEAP!

---sorry I don't think I actually answered your question...

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

The stator / charge coil is one of the expensive pieces in the charge system - probably upwards of $100 + for a used part.

The no charge condition could be just a rectifier / regulator assembly for around $30 - $40 or possibly wiring or grounding issues which could be addressed for a few dollars.

First step in deciding which one is the issue is to measure the voltage out of the stator.

But before making any charge circuit checks, check the condition of the battery. You do not want to be fooled by an older battery which will not accept a charge.

If you can measure 30 volts AC out of the stator at full throttle, the stator would be eliminated as the problem area.

Run a ground wire from the metal case of the rectifier regulator unit directly to the battery ground to eliminate ground wiring issues. Hopefully you will get 13 - 14 volts DC at the battery when the engine is running at 3/4 throttle or higher.

Loose wires or corroded terminals can cause a no charge condition too.

[condo630 6]

Swap on points/condenser, easy to find, easy to tune and CHEAP!

---sorry I don't think I actually answered your question...

Is that possible? How would I go about doing that.

I'd seriously consider it.

Didn't answer my question, but a good idea no less.

[condo630 6]

The stator / charge coil is one of the expensive pieces in the charge system - probably upwards of $100 + for a used part.

The no charge condition could be just a rectifier / regulator assembly for around $30 - $40 or possibly wiring or grounding issues which could be addressed for a few dollars.

First step in deciding which one is the issue is to measure the voltage out of the stator.

First, check the condition of the battery. You do not get fooled by an older battery which will not accept a charge.

If you can measure 30 volts AC out of the stator at full throtle, the stator would be eliminated as the problem area.

Run a ground wire from the metal case of the rectifier regulator unit directly to the battery ground to eliminate ground wiring issues. Hopefully you will get 13 - 14 volts DC at the battery when the engine is running at 3/4 throttle or higher.

Loose wires or corroded terminals can cause a no charge condition too.

I get next to zero volts DC at the battery at full throttle. I will post after I get a chance to check the ground connections and wires. I will also try a different battery.

Is the rectifier the silver thing with three wires on the inside of the dash, under the fuel tank? Does it matter which lead I connect to?

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

I have an HH100 in my Raider 10 that runs rather well

Regardless of how inexpensive or easy they are to replace, the points and condenser have nothing to do with the charge system.

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

I get next to zero volts DC at the battery at full throttle.

[condo630 6]

I have an HH100 in my Raider 10 that runs rather well

Regardless of how inexpensive or easy they are to replace, the points and condenser have nothing to do with the charge system.

True, they do not.

The charging system is top priority, however the solid state ignition is another reason I'd get rid of it. If I could convert to points, it might extend it's service sometime down the road (maybe not so far - I am distrusting of a part I can't get).

[condo630 6]

Either the battery is stone dead or we need to make sure you are measuring the DC volts properly. You should read at least 10 to 12.something DC volts across the battery terminals. Get back to me on what the battery voltage is if you measure directly across the battery terminals.

The battery is stone dead. I just picked the thing up last weekend and have not had time to fiddle with it. I jumped it with my car to see if it ran. I'll disconnect it and put it on the charger when I get the chance.

Yes, silver, rectangular with fins to dissipate heat.

I know what you mean, but I see no fins on mine. It is a shiny, rectangular box. I'll get a picture eventually.

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

Checkout this site

http://home.earthlink.net/~edstoller/id9.html

some good info here on the SSI ignitions with some options to convert the HH to other solid state systems.

[condo630 6]

Either the battery is stone dead or we need to make sure you are measuring the DC volts properly. You should read at least 10 to 12.something DC volts across the battery terminals. Get back to me on what the battery voltage is if you measure directly across the battery terminals.

That battery was completely shot. It would not accept a charge.

Using a different battery, across the terminals I measured 12.2-12.3 volts with the engine off and 12.3-12.4 with the engine running at full throttle.

For what it's worth, there was definitely a difference in the reading when it was running, albeit only .1 or .2 volts.

for your help. Still have not had time to clean ground connections and check the stator output, but it was easy enough to charge up another battery and drop it in.

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

Condo,

another viable option for you is to sell the external SSI module and the good stator / charge coil.

Throw in a few more dollars of your own and you are on track for what a decent replacement 10 -12 hp Kohler would run.

[condo630 6]

another viable option for you is to sell the external SSI module and the good stator / charge coil.

S.O.I.,

What are the SSI module and stator worth? I have a hunch the stator works, but not certain yet. I'm looking at a K301 for $300.

Who would buy them? I don't see too many people who really want to keep the old Techs badly enough to shell out for those parts. Like me, they just prefer to swap in a Kohler if the Tech doesn't run.

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

I have personally seen these style stators go for $80 to $100

and the SSI modules go for $100 to $150 on auction sites.

Remember, one cannot function without the other. The charge coil on the stator feeds a very high voltage pulse into the SSI to power the capacitive discharge circuits of of the SSI.

Put a fully functional pair on auction for $150 and watch them go.

Also remember that Wheel Horse collectors are not the only ones trying to maintain originality of their tractors. A few older JD tractors are probably sitting around waiting for such items to bring them back to life.

[condo630 6]

:hide:

Remember, one cannot function without the other. The charge coil on the stator feeds a very high voltage pulse into the SSI to power the capacitive discharge circuits of of the SSI.

I did not know that. I assumed it was like the solid state ignitions on a Briggs 3.5 or other smaller motor without a battery.

So it would follow that if the engine is running and the battery is not charging, the stator is good and I have a problem somewhere in the rest of the system.

Also, I read somewhere that running a motor that is failing to charge the battery can damage the stator. Is there any truth to that? Will running for short periods of time for testing do any harm?

Thanks again.

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

The stator on the HH100 contains the normal battery charging coils PLUS a single coil that supplies a high voltage (around 100 volts) to the external ignition module.

The charge coil can be identified by the much finer enameled wiring around a single stator segment.

The magnets passing by this coil induce a very high voltage / very low current charge into the external ignition module.

A defect in either the stator charge coil or the external ignition module will keep you from getting a spark. So both work as a team to produce a spark event.

[condo630 6]

The stator on the HH100 contains the normal battery charging coils PLUS a single coil that supplies a high voltage (around 100 volts) to the external ignition module.

The charge coil can be identified by the much finer enameled wiring around a single stator segment.

The magnets passing by this coil induce a very high voltage / very low current charge into the external ignition module.

A defect in either the stator charge coil or the external ignition module will keep you from getting a spark. So both work as a team to produce a spark event.

Then I could have a defect in the battery charging coil and it would still run, or is it wired to the ignition coil?

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

Then I could have a defect in the battery charging coil and it would still run

Exactly.

With the SSI system, as with any magneto based system, feed it gas and give it a push start and it will run without any battery hooked up.

The next step in troubleshooting your issue is checking the AC voltage out of the stator wires when the tractor running full open throttle.

28 - 30 VAC or above and your stator checks out ok.

Let us know.

[condo630 6]

OK, did some work today.

Cleaned all connections, replaced positive and negative leads at the battery, fixed B+ wire from the regulator, and tested AC voltage from stator - only 5-6 VAC.

I assume the charging coil must be replaced...is that accurate, or are they rebuild-able?

My inclination for the long term is to look for a replacement 10 or 12 horse Kohler, regardless of the charging situation. However, I was hoping not to dump a lot of money into it immediately...could I leave the the tractor hooked up to a Battery Tender when not in use so it can start if I need it? Should I pull the connector at the regulator? I am very leery of doing harm to that SSI, mostly because I do not understand completely how it works.

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

AC voltage from stator - only 5-6 VAC.

I am very leery of doing harm to that SSI, mostly because I do not understand completely how it works.

Condo,

5 - 6 VAC from the stator would indicate some defective stator segments or possible overload of the charge system.

Rebuild-able ? - yes - if you have the patience. You would have to obtain the correct AWG gauge enamel coated magnetic wire ($20) and unwind the current stator segments (noting the number of turns and direction of the turns on EACH segment).

Then using the new wire, rewind the segments. Folks do this all the time when home brewing wind turbines for wind power, etc. Not difficult but exacting work.

Probably one nights work.

If you remove your engine tins and inspect the stator. you may find oil from a worn front seal has allowed corrosion and stripping of the enamel from the wiring.

DO NOT SPRAY ANY STRONG REDUCERS such as acetone on the stator to clean it. Strong solvents will strip the enamel coating from the reaming wires.

Understanding the SSI - not really all that hard.

One segment of the stator contains windings that generate 100 volts instead of 30 volts.

This 100 volts leaves the stator winding and charges a capacitor in the external SSI unit. The charge stays on the capacitor until the small "pins" on the outer edges of the flywheel move past a small pickup coil on the SSI unit. The pickup coil senses the pin on the flywheel which triggers the 100 volt charge on the capacitor to dumps its energy into the primary side of the ignition coil in the SSI unit. The cap energy flowing in the primary side of the coil induces a high voltage charge into the secondary of the coil which is connected to the spark plug - bingo - a spark.

Not to complicated but expense to repair these days.

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

here is some relatively new info on replacement components for SSI modules

contact the creator at the site address

http://overnight-solutions.com/index_files/Page391.htm

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

A little visual reference for the HH100 issue

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

if this is what your system looks like

lift the wire (yellow in pic) to the external SSI module and lift the kill wire from the ignition switch

use a multimeter on AC volts (range setting will be for approximately 100 volts)

clip one lead to the open end of the yellow wire - the other lead to ground

crank the engine

depending on the multimeter - you should see anywhere fro 60 to 100+ volts AC on the display

voltage here would confirm the charge coil in the stator is probably OK

no voltage = stator charge coil is bad / bad ground connection from stator to engine / kill wire is grounded

60 - 100 VAC reading = probably defective SSI unit.

Check the back of the SSI unit for burn marks.

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

before you disconnect the multimeter from the charge wire to the SSI unit,

you could also measure the resistance of the charge coil to ground

approximately 400 ohms = good

much less than 400 ohms = short to ground

infinite or over range resistance = open wiring in the charge coil (bad stator assy)

let us know

[condo630 6]

Is there a way to test the battery charging coils?

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

Is there a way to test the battery charging coils?

With engine running - make this measurement for VAC out of the stator

With the stator out of the tractor or the engine NOT RUNNING

measure total winding resistance, should be in the range of 1 to 3 ohms

and if that works out OK, check for coil damage and shorting to ground by making this measurement - which should show infinite (or at least several million ohms resistance)

let me know if you need more help.