World Energy Problems

[theoldwizard1 2]

He said the power could be transmitted back to Earth by some kind of microwave signal.

And if that microwave transmitter antenna gets off by a hair, you will fry multiple square miles of land.

Better, cheaper solutions here on earth.

[bmuone 15]

Just read the yahoo article about wiki and the Saudi oil limits. Looks like we may be needing all those ideas sooner than later. I had planned on being a gas'r til the end. Now, not so sure. What ever they do, they need to stop this food for fuel stuff now! How stupid can we get? (Ooops open ended question)

[6wheeler 669]

What ever they do, they need to stop this food for fuel stuff now! How stupid can we get? (Ooops open ended question)

Ouch, I don't call "Bio-Fuels" food for fuel. IMO using U.S. grown products to make fuel is a smart idea. I am not arguing with anyone on this or making a political statement either. To pay our own farmers to grow products (not necessarily food products) for fuel is a no brainer. Sure, it is expensive now. But the more we try and the more we learn the lower the prices will be. Remember when big screen tv's were 3 or 4 times what they are now. Running a steam generated power plant on methane gas that we already have in landfills, or bossies manure pile? Well, that makes sense to me too. This may all not happen efficiently in my lifetime but I sure want them to try.

[420lse 18]

Lots of ideas here.

http://www.energeticforum.com/

[rmaynard 16,574]

Corn-based ethanol = higher food prices

Algae-based ethanol = lower food prices

A new technology that will produce cheap fuel, and JOBS

[Trouty56 567]

We are the most wasteful nation on the planet of both energy and food. Plenty of food gets thrown away. Never a shortage of food at the grocery store! Shelves packed full! Think it is all sold by the expiration date?? Maybe everybody posting here watches their energy consumption to use as little as possible but I doubt we do. We want a cheap alternative so we can waste more on things we really don't need.

The wind blows and the price of something goes up. Speculation of a shortage drives the price of commodities up more than a real shortage.

Energy will always be expensive because we all are addicted to it. There is no cheap way out now.

PS - I am wasteful myself. The 90's made us all wasteful. The 90's can be compared to the 20's when everybody partied, stocks soared, and people thought life was so grand. Then the 30's hit....

Maybe this is just bullcrap...hey, there is some energy in that too!! :thumbs:

[Duff 206]

There are actually a number of companies starting up in the relatively new field of cellulose-to-ethanol conversion, that is, "waste" plant products being converted by bacteria to a usable fuel. One of these is just a couple of miles from my office. While the technology has a ways to go to provide commercially viable volumes of ethanol, the prospect of being able to convert non-food plant products to fuel would seem to be a win-win all the way around.

Duff :thumbs:

[bitten 134]

There are some many things that everyone can do in there everyday lives that would greatly reduce our needs for fossil fuel, but most people wont do them. If I could just get my children to turn out the lights when they leave a room I would be so happy.

There are a lot of ideas out there for other ways to power things but for some reason there is resistance in making the change. Like our local landfill that just burns the methane gas off that is produces instead of using it as a power source. Or the people that would rather have a hog farm next to them then a wind farm. I could go on and on but the point that I'm trying to make is that we have to change our way of thinking before we can change anything. Its easy to find people that would like things to be different but it is hard to find people that are willing to change there ways.

[JUSS10 250]

I'll be honest, im not too knowledgeable in this area but a few months back i bought a VW diesel with the intention of running bio fuel. My plan was to try and collect waste veggie oil and make bio diesel in 40 gallon batches. Running my car on %100 bio diesel is actually better for the motor due to its higher lubricity than standard low sulfur diesel from the pump. From what I've been told it will increase my millage and my performance will only suffer a little bit. biggest draw back is i live in MI so for the colder months the highest bio blend i can run is 20%.

This also got me thinking about my tractors. I'm in the process of finding a diesel motor for one of them. how cool would it be to use my tractor to plant a seed such as black oil sunflower seeds, harvest them for their oil and run my tractor on the fuel made from the plant? i know its small scale but it sure would be cool

[Operator 7]

How much jet fuel for an airliner to get just off the ground? 4000 gals.

A rocket taking off in FL? I don't know this one but they do blow one humungus hole in the ozone layer.

State vehicles pure diesel? Why not Bio? Gels up in winter. I don't buy diesel in Minn. in the winter for this reason. I buy it in Wisc. we don't add as much bean oil over here.

The trickle down effect - If they would make more of an attempt at the top then the lower on the pole [us] would make more of an attempt.

[theoldwizard1 2]

I'll be honest, im not too knowledgeable in this area but a few months back i bought a VW diesel with the intention of running bio fuel. My plan was to try and collect waste veggie oil and make bio diesel in 40 gallon batches.

I used to work in engineering at one of the Detroit 3 and still have friends that work there and that directly involved in light vehicle diesel engine development.

First, check your warranty. Some manufacturers invalidate your warranty if you are using more than B10-20.

It is possible to run (some) diesel engines directly on used, well filtered cooking oil Grease Car

Running my car on %100 bio diesel is actually better for the motor due to its higher lubricity than standard low sulfur diesel from the pump. From what I've been told it will increase my millage and my performance will only suffer a little bit....

Better ? I would like to see to see the research that supports that.

Biggest problem that manufacturers face is widely varying quality in bio-diesel. Some is good, some is very bad.

This also got me thinking about my tractors. I'm in the process of finding a diesel motor for one of them. how cool would it be to use my tractor to plant a seed such as black oil sunflower seeds, harvest them for their oil and run my tractor on the fuel made from the plant? i know its small scale but it sure would be cool

On a small scale this might work if you have enough land. Have you seen the prices of 16-16-16 fertilizer lately ?

[theoldwizard1 2]

Corn-based ethanol = higher food prices

I'm glad that more and more people are understanding that !

And let's not forget Senate votes to extend ethanol subsidy for 2011

"The 45-cent-a-gallon tax credit and the 54-cent tariff were to expire on December 31. A one-year extension means Congress will face the contentious biofuels question again next year."

A new technology that will produce cheap fuel, and JOBS

This should be the goal !

[theoldwizard1 2]

State vehicles

[6wheeler 669]

I agree with what you say T.O.W. But, do you not agree that corn is the highest producing and easiest crop that is grown? What I am trying to say is, when the crop is harvested, say sweetcorn. Perhaps we should come up with a way to utilize the plant itself. When they pick it, they usually shred whats left and plow it in. What would be wrong with collecting that waste and extracting the sugar and starches from the plant itself. I realize that too takes energy and time but with better technology it is possible. No one has all the answers, I know I certainly don't. But I also think it is exciting to see what is happening. When ethanol is made, the by-product is made into livestock feed. A large portion of the corn that is grown goes into livestock feed anyway. So, if we process it and in the end it still goes into feed, what did we lose. It is much easier for say,cattle to digest this processed feed than the whole corn. As a matter of fact, cattle are really not designed to eat corn at all. And, this industry also creates jobs. But, as I said the Bio-fuel industry is in its infancy still and with time I believe it will be a viable source for inexpensive energy. I am sure when the petroleum industry started, they to were riddled with nay-sayers as well. And it was expensive and time consuming to learn to make it work. But it did.

[theoldwizard1 2]

... do you not agree that corn is the highest producing and easiest crop that is grown?

In the US, probably yes. It grows well in our climate and there has been a lot of research done on developing optimal strains of corn. Good production relies on adequate water (rain or irrigation) and fertilizer.

... when the crop is harvested, say sweetcorn ...

The vast majority of the corn grown is "dent" corn. Sweet corn is for human consumption.

Perhaps we should come up with a way to utilize the plant itself. When they pick it, they usually shred whats left and plow it in. What would be wrong with collecting that waste and extracting the sugar and starches from the plant itself.

Nothing wrong with that. We just don't know how to do it cost effectively.

I realize that too takes energy and time but with better technology it is possible.

I'm all for research and even a certain amount of government subsidized research. I really am against the government paying the oil company to blend ethanol made from corn into gasoline.

As a matter of fact, cattle are really not designed to eat corn at all.

Go to your local grocery store and see if they have "grass feed" beef. If not, go to a specialty store. Better take out a loan if you want to buy a couple of porterhouse steaks !

... the Bio-fuel industry is in its infancy still and with time I believe it will be a viable source for inexpensive energy.

Yes, the bio-fuel industry is in it infancy. So why are subsidizing the sale of ethanol and not further research ?

As of today, the cheapest way to make ethanol is from sugar cane (much higher sugar content than corn). The US does not grow anywhere near enough sugar cane or sugar beets. Brazil could grow more sugar cane and if we ever re-establish trade with Cuba they could grow huge amounts.

But before you get excited about foreign sugar, molasses or ethanol you should know all of them are heavily taxed (imported sugar has been taxed since BEFORE the Revolutionary War) !!

[SALTYWRIGHT 861]

AFTER READING THIS ABOUT FUELS I DRAINED MY 417-8 DIESEL WHEEL HORSE AND PUT IN VEG. OIL. IT STARTED GOOD AND RAN GOOD. THE NEXT DAY IT DID NOT START UNTIL I HEATED IT UP. I MAY RIG UP TWO TANKS ON IT. ONE TO START WITH DIESEL AND THE OTHER ONE TO RUN VEG. OIL. RUSS

[flyovrcntry 115]

Wizard,

You make me wish I had stayed in school.Will you adopt me? :thumbs:

[theoldwizard1 2]

Wizard,

You make me wish I had stayed in school.Will you adopt me?

Nope.

I have too much fun spoiling my grandchildren and then sending them home !

P.S. I have read a lot and discussed ethanol with other engineers, so I think I know more than the average person.

[theoldwizard1 2]

AFTER READING THIS ABOUT FUELS I DRAINED MY 417-8 DIESEL WHEEL HORSE AND PUT IN VEG. OIL. IT STARTED GOOD AND RAN GOOD. THE NEXT DAY IT DID NOT START UNTIL I HEATED IT UP. I MAY RIG UP TWO TANKS ON IT. ONE TO START WITH DIESEL AND THE OTHER ONE TO RUN VEG. OIL. RUSS

That is what they recommend at Grease Car

[6wheeler 669]

Wizard, I have to say , I really like having discussions with you. You stay well informed on things, that is an admirable trait. I agree on the fact that the subsidies get miss-used alot. Dent corn is where we get that all powerful and totally bad for you(according to some fanatics)CORN SYRUP. It is cheaper to make sugar from corn than sugar cane, Plus it can still make livestock feed. And, as far as Beets go, you may be quite surprised to know, I used to haul them and spuds. Up here in Mn. we have quite the beet growing operations, up in the Red River Valley. It kind of made me think of how wasteful that industry is. We used to haul literally thousands of loads to the pilers and these piles would be 60' tall and hundreds of feet long. Quite often, they couldn't use them all because the processing plants were full and didn't want any more. And, farmers couldn't build storage sheds to hold them so they sat in piles and rotted. Then they would pay us to haul them back to the field to be spread as manure. Wastefull. I guess what I am trying to say is, If the Bio-fuel industry spent as much time on research and development, and less time trying to get government subsidies, it might actually work. Oh, I am fortunate enough to have a place(my uncles farm).Where each year I can go to our local auction barn and buy 2 calves every year. We put them on pasture, and the two from the year before are ready to butcher, so we just keep turning them year after year.We can usually sell one to cover the cost of processing the one I keep. And, I raise my own chickens and have eggs and such. I know I am very lucky to be able to do this. That way I can decide what they will eat. And the same with my gardens, I know what is going in there.

[theoldwizard1 2]

... Up here in Mn. we have quite the beet growing operations, up in the Red River Valley.

Sorry, MI has you beat (or should I say beet) ! From Wikipedia

"Sebewaing, Michigan is known (to Americans) as the sugar beet capital of the world. Sebewaing lies in the Thumb region of Michigan; both the region and state are major sugar beet producers. Sebewaing is home to one of three Michigan Sugar Company factories."

... farmers couldn't build storage sheds to hold them so they sat in piles and rotted. Then they would pay us to haul them back to the field to be spread as manure. Wastefull.

I'm with you. I hate waste. With the following exception Plasma_arc_waste_disposal

It is a Win-Win. Gets rid of solid waste and makes energy. Also can dispose of certain amount of toxic waste. Yes, it is expensive, but when are we going to stop making trash mountains ?

If the Bio-fuel industry spent as much time on research and development, and less time trying to get government subsidies, it might actually work.

Now you are talking !