Engine rebuild??

[Kelly 1,028]

I keep hearing people on here say they just rebuilt their engine and put new rings and gaskets in it, Well I've been building car engines for years and that would never cut it as a rebuild, overhaul or freshen up maybe, but not a rebuild, to me a rebuild is a complete remachining of the engine, starting with a complete disassembly of the engine, I mean everything, cleaning the block, boring the block to the correct size of the new piston, new valves, maybe grind them if still nice, check valve guides, replace if needed, grinding the crank, new rod, machine head flat, new gaskets ect..... you get the idea a new engine when done, rebuilt, not overhauled, sorry for the rant but it bugs me, to hear a set of rings and gaskets called a rebuild, What do you call a rebuild???

[TT-(Moderator) 1,127]

I'm with you on this, Kelly.

Rebuilding an engine is a long way off from scratching up the cylinder wall and installing rings and a few new gaskets.

But remember....... spray or brush painting everything on a tractor without sanding or taking anything apart is sometimes referred to as a "complete restoration". :ychain:

[Kelly 1,028]

But remember....... spray or brush painting everything on a tractor without sanding or taking anything apart is sometimes referred to as a "complete restoration".

I didn't go there, I did have a little started but figured this was a big enough can of worms, so I deleted it.

[JMW 3]

I'm not a big fan of a Krylon "rebuild" either. I guess it has its place sometimes ,but it's still not a rebuild.

[Kelly 1,028]

I never said if you can't do it right don't do it, or if you don't have the money or know how, that is fine, just call a apple a apple and a orange a orange. more power to you, to do the best you can with what you have, I will support that all the way.

[1961551 2]

I agree. i read it alot as well on here. however, i never go into an unknown engine of anykind with deadset plans of boring, crank machining, ect. dont get me wrong, i dont build engines that dont get it, if they need it. proper measurement strategies dont lie though. if a crank is good, why turn it? if a bore is in specs with no taper, why bore it? i realize that most worn engines will need these. but i have been into dirt track engines that are practically new. rings are shot from improper air filtration. thats all. i have also been into a few small engines that only needed rings. however, that is rare. not trying to argue with you, just my opinion.

just because its new, dont make it better, unless it is better.

[Kelly 1,028]

I agree not all engines need a complete rebuild, all I'm saying is don't call it a rebuild if it is not rebuilt.

[Duff 206]

I'm not a big fan of a Krylon "rebuild" either. I guess it has its place sometimes ,but it's still not a rebuild.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, fellow RS'er's, but according to my humble (and possibly misguided) definition, taking a tractor that's in tough shape and repairing/replacing/repainting parts and pieces to bring it back to a solid, running worker would be called a rebuild, either partial or total depending on how much work is involved.

Restoration, on the other hand, involves bringing the machine back to as close to original factory spec and condition as possible, and my hat is off to those with the means and skills to go that route. You guys do some great work!

My heartburn here is with what could easily be seen by our newer members as a somewhat holier-than-thou attitude toward those of us who take pride in using what limited means and skills we have (including rattle can paint jobs) to create what we feel are pretty decent looking and running tractors - no more, no less.

Just my own thoughts.......

Duff :ychain:

[TT-(Moderator) 1,127]

Try not to read too much into this, gang.......

What Kelly is saying is don't claim something to be what it's not.

Plain & simple. :ychain:

[wallfish 15,926]

don't claim something to be what it's not.

Plain & simple.

Especially when it is advertised for sale. It's not right and dishonest

[JMW 3]

Well I can assure you that there is no holier-than-thou attitude here. I have rattle canned my share of engines(both car and tractor) in the past. My point was the same as Kelly .....just call it what it is.I've been a mechanic for 20 yrs. and a quick re-fresh with new paint isn't a rebuild. Do i think it hurts to call it one? Only if you are trying to sell it as one. As far as using whatever means you have to do it.... I'm all for that.If someone re-does something with a paintbrush and it's better than it was before ,than it was worth doing.

[puddlejumper 67]

Repaired , refurbished,Made to work,mechanicaly restored,cosmetically restored, 100% restoration. You could take 10 different people and end up with 10 different variations of opinion of these definitions. Also it depends on what you expect from the person your talking to.

Prime example. Rolled the unfinished restoration of the 856 out of the shed this summer and my father looked at it. I know I have done a first class job on what has been done. He walked around it and his only comment was I had the rear tires over inflated. That would piss most people off ,I found it a complement because it was the only thing he could find. Because it was me he would pick it apart no matter what where, he would have praised another.

Now, I owe a lot to my father in that category. Because if your going to do it do it right. And I am where I am today because of it. Same note if you need it now and you got bailing wire to fix it with so be it.

[Duff 206]

Try not to read too much into this, gang.......

Guilty as charged, and I apologize to all.

I mistakenly combined TT's, "But remember....... spray or brush painting everything on a tractor without sanding or taking anything apart is sometimes referred to as a "complete restoration"." with Jim's engine rebuilding observation about a Krylon "rebuild" and I went off on a tangent.

Lesson to self: read more carefully, and engage brain before pounding on keyboard!

Duff :D

[Rollerman 290]

All good comments here.

Personally IMOP putting rings in a honed cylinder is just a refresh to me.

An engine rebuild would be tearing everything apart, checking specs, & reassembling it all with new parts where needed & machining if needed to put everything back in spec.

As far as painting the tractor & calling it restored.

I've seen all sorts....even bought a "restored" tractor once that was painted with a roller.

I had to take it out back & shoot it out of site of the other Horses cause it had some good parts.

There are some people who are really gifted laying down regardless if it's spray bomb or paint gun.

Both will get great results if you take the time to do it right.

Me I'm a rattle can hack & will never call one of my tractors restored.

If my eyes get any worse I may need a paint roller.... :ychain:

[sorekiwi 761]

Some very valid points here. Calling a repainted tractor "restored" has always annoyed me.

To me a restoration should cover the whole tractor - gearbox, steering, electrical, the whole thing should have been inspected and brought back to "spec".

I'm agreeing that a set of rings and a valve grind is a "freshen" and not a rebuild. I guess by the same criteria, a set of bearings in a gearbox should be a "freshen" too.

It doesnt apply so much to our tractors, but with cars sometimes there is some merit in having the original parts on the car rather than more modern reproductions. An example of this is a 1911 Rolls Royce that we have at work right now. The body on it is the original 1911 body. It could be "nicer" if we built some new parts for it, but there is definately something cool about it all being 100 years old.

I guess another example of this closer to home would be the use of Wheel Horse branded tires - so much cooler than a set of new Duro's.

We could get into the discussion of restorations that are "better than new", there are a ton of shiny tractors out there with paint jobs that are nothing like what it left the factory with!

But I think Kelly's point is that we shouldnt misrepresent the work that has been done.

[dgoyette 12]

Some very valid points here. Calling a repainted tractor "restored" has always annoyed me.

To me a restoration should cover the whole tractor - gearbox, steering, electrical, the whole thing should have been inspected and brought back to "spec"...

I'm agreeing that a set of rings and a valve grind is a "freshen" and not a rebuild...

But I think Kelly's point is that we shouldnt misrepresent the work that has been done.

Agree - but not only for those who intentionally misrepresent, but this is also a very good thread for educational purposes. I am sure we can all agree that sometimes claims of rebuild/restore are due to misunderstanding what is involved in a true rebuild or restore versus trying to misrepresent.

[rmaynard 14,898]

I'm not going to jump into this one with my opinion. I'll just quote my mother who used to say:

"Just because you put syrup on it, doesn't make it pancakes"

Bob

[JimD 3,345]

There have been several threads like this over time, which gave me pause to reconsider what I do with a tractor. The first one I did I may have called a restoration. It was not. It was a refurbish, or redo, if you will. Since then I have done two more "refurbs". I didn't get into the engines, but I did nearly completely dismantle and clean and repaint the tractors. (yes, rattle can jobs) They turned out pretty nice, but definitely not restorations in the true sense of the word. My point is that I learned from threads like this and adapted my thinking to be more realistic about my own efforts. Besides, I use my tractors. I just want them to have paint instead of rust, and to look decent.

That being said, I still understand that we are not all like minded, and opinions vary widely. What one thinks is a restoration, others do not. Do we need to criticize someone's less than stellar efforts? I don't. As long as it isn't represented as restored for the purpose of selling, because pictures always look better than what you see in person, it's just semantics to me.

Semantic - Of or relating to semantics or the meanings of words; Reflecting intended structure and meaning; Petty or trivial; (of a person or statement) quibbling. :ychain:

[Kelly 1,028]

Wow, I was only trying to point out to many people here are calling a engine "rebuilt" by throwing a set of rings and gaskets at a engine, or maybe even a rod and piston, I never said anything about the rest of the tractor, this is the engine section, even a completely rebuilt engine does NOT need to be painted, and it can still be rebuilt, yes the selling point of a tractor with a rebuilt engine is good if it was truly rebuilt, I only wanted people to be aware there is meanings to the words we/they use, I've looked at a good number of tractors, even a few cars that were misrepresented as having rebuilt engines, I'm a state certified mechanic I now what and how to ask to see if the job was done right, others don't know and I hate to see someone get taken in by a person not telling it like it is.

As for the tractor restore thing, do the best you can and be proud of your accomplishment, you did the best you can with what you had or your abilities, heck I'm no remodeler and redid most of my house, right?, probably not, look good yes, do I say I remodeled it, no I say I fixed it up, but again don't call it a "restore" those are big shoes to fill, we all are guilty of calling things or putting things in the wrong category that they don't belong, sorry I posted this thread, I just want others to be aware of things that might be not as they seem.

[MikesRJ 552]

I pondered the same question at the beginning of my RJ restoration. In fact I wrote about it in the write-up I posted. Excepting the purely rhetoric nature of this thread, and staying away from anyone else s comments with the exception of Kelly's initial thought, I feel I must throw in my two cents.

Webster's defines the following words, as they apply to mechanical matters (RE: http://www.merriam-webster.com ):

Restoration: the act of restoring an item or situation to its original purpose or state.

Renovation: The state of being restored to its former good condition.

Recondition: To restore to a functional state, or to a condition resembling the original.

Refresh: To renew or revitalize an item or situation.

Repaint: Applying new paint or finish over the original surface paint/finish.

Rebuild: Repair or replacing all of the parts in an effort to restore that portion to its original condition, or to improve it above its original state.

Based on the previous definitions, no engine work is truly a restoration in the literal sense of the word, because you can never return it (an engine) to its perfectly original state, exactly as it came from the manufacturer. The best definition then, for engines, would be "recondition" or "renovation". Recondition being the norm for the engine rebuilding industry, I would say this is most accurate and accepted noun for the process.

Painting an engine, rebuilding a carburetor, or replacing the rings, is certainly NOT a "reconditioned" engine. IMHO; reconditioning an engine requires a complete dis-assembly of the entire engine, a complete measurement of all parts against OEM spec.'s, a piston cylinder re-bore and crank turning where necessary, and replacement of all parts not meeting the OEM original spec's. Once finished with re-assembly, adjustments, and testing, you now have a "reconditioned" engine which closely matches the original.

Those who call their work by any other name is OK by me. Based on what is stated in the thread, I replace my own definitions where applicable and move along. We should all do the same. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

[buckrancher 2,675]

I think you nailed it Mike

Brian

[Kelly 1,028]

Recondition: To restore to a functional state, or to a condition resembling the original.

That is a good overhaul, to make it run good and be usable, NOT rebuilt with new parts, if that is true, I could recondtion a engine with out machine work, and only a few parts and gaskets, to make it resemble orig. or be functional.

Rebuild: Repair or replacing all of the parts in an effort to restore that portion to its original condition, or to improve it above its original state.

This is a true rebuild, I didn't say restore, I said rebuilt, I guess there is a fine line between the two, but a rebuild is like new or better, not just back to a good usable state.

These are straight from your post, I don't want to but heads with anyone, we all know something the other don't, that is what makes this place tick, but I think out of the 4000 members most don't have a clue as to how to rebuild a engine, I'm not talking about the 50 or so of us that post all the time, but the rest of the members.

[1961551 2]

here is a REBIULT engine. KOLHER K 181. it is the original block, block it is not bored ,and is not N.O.S. bore measured 2.93296 at top 2.9321 at bottom. after honing. block was not bored... didn't need it. crankshaft was also not MACHINED. it was not out of round, no starvation of oil. polishished out at 1.58721. this engine was ran with out proper filtration and cooling shrouds. it was smoking. it ran good though. piston was burnt at ring land. (overheating). yes, it got an ebay $21.00 piston and rings. exhaust valve was burnt like nomal. ground both valves. valve stems were in good shape. no need to replace. valve to guide clearance was nominal and in specs. valves are original. valve seats were machined. crank bearings (like most situations are good). .01164 endplay on crank. this engine did not get machining in all areas. it did not need it. if it did , it would have got it... THIS ENGINE HAS BEEN REBUILT. whats on the outside has nothing to to do with a REBUILD. wish i had pics of internal build. an engine has to to be clean when assemled, other than that, paitience. jimmy

17 years ASE CERTIFIED engine master

14 years ASE CERTIFIED L1 MASTER

[wheelhorse656 20]

i agree tif it is ok why blow the money to fix somthing that does not need replaced it is still a rebuild.

[d180man 5]

Hi this is like evey time i took a block to my napa store just to fix it up ! they wount to make it in to a race car engine! and all i wount was to put a kit in it ! but if it needed bord or a crank i know you have to do that ! but you can just put a good kit in them and get a good engine out of that ! but if you are saleing it then just tail the buyer what you did to it or as a buy ask ??? what was done to it !! :D