The good, the bad, and the ugly

[IthacaJeff 151]

Hi guys;

Well, I managed to pull off the wheel and hub to begin my axle oil seal replacement.

(thanks for all the advice from this forum). The good news is that the hub was so

loose and oily that it slid right off. The other good news is that the axle has no

up-down or fore-aft movement whatsoever! There is about 1/16" in-out play -- I

assume that is normal.

The bad news is that the woodruff key (I believe that is what it is called) is pretty

loose in the keyway (see picture). What kind of play should there be? How can it

be snugged up? Simply a bigger key?

The ugly is the indention from the hub set screw (the set screw was broken in the

hub, which hopefully won't be much a problem). Anyway, does this look normal? If

not, what should be done about it?

Thanks as always,

Jeff in Ithaca/Enfield NY

Loose keyway

Set screw marks

[300zx 7]

So, the hub already has two set screws? One on the half moon key and one 90 degrees to it that caused the indention in the axle? How loose is the hub on the axle itself? If the hub is tight enough on the axle, I would get the broken set screw out. I would put a small divot in the axle using the hub as a guide with a drill bit the minor diameter of the threads in the hub. The divot will provide a place for the set screw to seat in the axle. Tighten both set screws tight. I would check the tightness on the other axle also. If it is loose, I would do the same to it. After you run it a while, check the tightness again. I did this to my C161 and was successful, but I only mow with it, so the loads aren't that high.

[rmaynard 14,888]

What's the model number of your 416-8? You might be better off looking for a new (or used) axle.

Bob

[sorekiwi 761]

Get a new key, and try it in the axle. Really you want no slop at all and ideally to be a light tap fit in the axle. You can get a key from a good "old style" hardware store if they still exist in your area, failing that order one (and a couple of spares) from your Toro dealer or Mcmaster Carr.

I'm replacing an axle in one of mine right now because the slot is flogged out.

Another thing to check is the slot in the hub, its very common for the key to beat out the sides of the slot in the hub.

[IthacaJeff 151]

Gents;

I'm not inclined to swap out the axle, partly because that seems a big expense and

tearing down the transmission is not something I'm prepared to do. It may be

simpler than it looks, but I've got no covered workspace with lighting. . . right now

I'm doing this under an overhang on my shed. An axle replacement will be an

all-else-fails option.

The model number sticker has long worn off, but the Kohler K-series tells me it is

probably and '85 or '86. Anyway, here are a few more thoughts that I could use

an opinion on. Keep in mind that I use this tractor for a lot of work. Mowing is its

main duty (48" deck), but that also includes some high weeds. The past month

I've towed large loads and pulled heavy drags as I've been clearing out about 2

acres to get it ready for grass.

1. The half-moon key fits well in the hub, so it only seems the axle is the culprit.

If I get a bigger key it may fit snug in the axle but won't fit in the hub. What if I

put the original key back in and then slide a right-sized piece of sheet metal down

in the gap to snug up the key?

2. The current hub had a lot of in-out movement, but then again, the set screw that

is 90 deg from the key was broken and not pressing against the axle. I'm not

opposed to 300zx's suggestion of drilling out a new spot for the set screw, though

this does seem to place a lot of stress on the screw. Would using high grade bolt

(e.g., grade 5 or 8) be a good idea or bad?

Thanks,

Jeff in Enfield/Ithaca

[pfrederi 17,146]

Do not use a plain bolt. The key to a set screw is the cup shaped end that digs into the woodruff key or the axle. The flat end of a bolt will not hold well. If you were very good you might be able to drill a cup in the end of a bolt ...but

I would drill and tap a new hole on the hub (opposite the one that chewed up the axle) 90 degrees off the woodruff key. Get two new 3/8 16 set screws and do not forget the jam nuts on both setscrews.

As to your loose keyway I would definitely use an new woodruff key. Shimming would be better than nothing if the new key were loose.

[TT-(Moderator) 1,127]

Can you get the broken set screw out of the hub? That would potentially be easier than drilling/tapping another hole. Purchase two new setscrews to fit the hub.

Now - as much as some of you will cringe when you read this.....

Get a new woodruff key and a pack of JB Weld.

Install the new axle seal first - after dressing up the axle with a file. Wrap the axle with some electrical tape for protection of the seal lip.

Once the seal is in and the tape is removed, clean the new key and keyway and mix up a little JB Weld. Put some of the JB weld in the keyway and push the key into it. Make sure there's enough in the keyway to fill the gap. Scrape off the excess that oozes out and slide the hub onto the axle.

Tighten the setscrew over the key first, then tighten the second setscrew.

As long as the second setscrew bites into the axle, it doesn't really matter if it's botched up from before.

It might not be the "prim & proper" way to fix it, but it will get your tractor back in operation.

You can take your time finding a replacement axle and hub and fix it right when you get a better place to work on it, etc.

[JimD 3,345]

Terry's right on here. JB Weld is an amazingly strong product. I've used it for some pretty neat fixes on things, like the holes in the C85 hood. I did the best I could to fill weld them, then finished with JB Weld. Worked great, and I wouldn't hesitate to use it for the repair mentioned here.

[buckrancher 2,675]

I agree with TT on this Jeff

If you want me to get the broken set screw out let me know I also have set screws

Brian

[tgranthamfd 28]

I agree with the J B weld and trying to remove the old broken set screw. I looks like the hub was set in against the trans axle case, which on mine did not have the set screws centered on the key. On the ones I have done, the hub was pretty much flush with the end of the axle to get it centered on the key. Placing it there may give you good metal for the second set screw. Seems like when all the way in, it puts the set screw on the backside of the key. I may be doing mine wrong, but I can't see why they wouldn't have it centered up. :)

[sorekiwi 761]

I may be doing mine wrong, but I can't see why they wouldn't have it centered up.

It probably just ended up against the transmission when it came loose on the axle

[Docwheelhorse 2,560]

Hi---if everything suggested here fails and you are to the point of replacing the axle I would do the following. Put the hub back on the axle as a guide and drill clear through the hub, axle and back out the other side and put a grade 8 or better (I think there called 8.8's ) 3/8ths bolt right through and put a nut on the other side. Yes this is a butcher job but it will run for ALONG time like that and hey... the axle and hub are shot anyways in this scenario right .

Tony

[PlowDayJunkie 3]

I have a complete 8 speed rear end with BIG axles, $150.00

I am not that far from you, and I may be going to visit kid in college at Penn State so I would almost be going through there on 13.

let me know if you are interested

Scott

315-794-1377 cell

[IthacaJeff 151]

Gents;

Now THATS what I talkin' about for advice! I had thought of JB Weld, but

wasn't sure it would hold. That will be my tactic after I get the seal

replaced.

Anyway, Aussie on my other thread warned me about different outside

diameters of the oil seals, so we'll have to see about the ones I'm going

to pick up from NAPA after work. I was at the dentist this morning and

got him to give me a dental pick to help remove the old seal (hey, I've

spent enough money there between me and the 6 kids!). Hopefully I can

get the seal replaced on Thurs, and I'll get to the axle and hub after that.

Brian, I "should" be able to get the broken set screw out and get a replacement.

If not, I'll give you a holler. . . may give holler anyway if I start botching

things up!

Scott in Little Falls. . .I'm not quite at the point of replacing the entire rear

end, yet, but I'm curious as to the "big" axles you mentioned. My 416 has

the 1 1/8" (as opposed to the 1" in my 310-8). Is this what you are referring to?

Jeff in Enfield/Ithaca

[Coadster32 793]

Yet another idea if you're partial to pulling out the axle. Bring the same axle to a machine shop. They can cut a new keyway 90deg, or whatever is best, in for you. I've done it a few times with awesome results. Either way, I'd try the JB Weld method first (TT), then put a bolt thru the whole thing if it doesn't work (Doc). Seeing the loads your talking about, you should be just fine. Good luck.

[tarcoleo 119]

Hello Ithaca!!

Looking at the photos you took, it appears that the set screw has never engaged

the woodruff key. My take is that the set screw has only been tightened onto

the shaft, NOT ONTO THE KEYWAY WHERE IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE.

Once you get the old setscrew out and replace it with a hollow nose type with

locking nut, and tighten it on the woodruff key, you should be okay. Of course,

put in the shaft seal carefully--there is much discussion about this procedure here on Red Square if you do the search. Good luck,

Tom in RI