416-8 Wiring???

[Cody 242]

Hey guys well the othe day I bought a 416-8 and while i was washing it I noticed that there was a solenoid mounted on the engine plate. It looks like some of the wires were removed and put directly to the starter. So i am assumeing that the solenoid went bad. I would like to put it back to origional but am not sure what color wires go where. The tractor has the onan performer engine and the solenoid is mounted in front of the engine by the starter. I was wondering if anybody could help me out and possibly take a detailed picture of a solenoid that is wired correctly for the onan or possibly give me some direction in how to wire it correctly. any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank You

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

I have a 416-8 in restoration process right now. I have not checked the wiring to see if its original but I'm sure we can figure it out.

A picture or two of your current wiring in that area might help answer the question quicker.

Once someone starts chopping wiring , anything is possible. So seeing what you have currently is a good place to start

:D

[Cody 242]

Thank you I would really appreciate the help. I will post pictures this afternoon.

[Cody 242]

Sorry it took so long to get pictures but here they are. On the solenoid the small flat post has a black wire that goes to the ground, the one large post has a blue wire that has been unhooked and is just dangeling there, the other large post has a cable that goes from the solenoid to the starter solenoid. On the starter solenoid there is a tan wire that goes to the small flat post and the rest of the wires are hooked to the positive terminal on the starter solenoid. There is also another tan wire that is ot connected to anything which is hanging by the bottom of the dip stick tube.

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

Cody

here is an slightly enhanced photo

for starters (no pun intended), please confirm what is connected to terminal # 1 on the starter - right now, it looks like there is nothing on that terminal

confirm that wire #5 goes to the positive terminal of the battery and where does the other end of #5 terminate - at #1 or #2 on the photo. I can't see clearly from the picture you posted.

My tractor will not be a good reference as it is a Kohler powered 416-8 and is wired completely different - no worries - this should be easy enough to figure out. Lets confirm the first to items tho #1 and #5.

[Cody 242]

Hi Chuck,

there is nothing on terminal #1 at all. #5 is indeed the positive battery cable and is attached to terminal #2. Thank You for the help

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

Cody,

I pulled my older 520H out of the corner of the basement and looked at the starter wiring.

Here is an update of YOUR tractor wiring

On MY tractor - the blue wire #4 goes to a push on connector under the starter terminals #1 and #2.

On YOUR tractor, there appears to be a wire already there (labeled #7). It looks like a yellow wire with a blue push on terminal. This might be a possible cause of your problem.

On a normally functioning tractor, when you turn the ignition key to the start position, the 12 volts present at terminal #2 and wire #3 is allowed to pass thru the solenoid and apply 12 volts to wire # 4. With wire #4 connected to the start terminal on the starter, the starter is engaged. We need wire # 4 (blue) connected to the start push on terminal present on the starter assy.

Can you take a better picture of that area?

Also, confirm where the # 7 wires goes. It will probably disappear back into the wiring harness.

Also, terminal #1 should have a braided copper strap going directly into the starter assembly. Its usually tucked tightly up against the starter motor.

:D

[Cody 242]

I took the hood off so hopefully the pictures will be better. Wire #7 does disappear into the harness. But i checked it with the meter and it has power when the key switch is in the start position to crank the motor over, I also noticed that the solenoid has two small flat posts on it, one has a black wire that goes to ground and the other has nothing on it, i would think that wire #7 would go on the available flat post on the solenoid to engage the solenoid instead of on the starter, and then #4 would go from the solenoid to the starter where #7 is currently located. #1 does have the braided strap going to the starter. here are some different pictures.

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

i would think that wire #7 would go on the available flat post on the solenoid to engage the solenoid instead of on the starter, and then #4 would go from the solenoid to the starter where #7 is currently located.

Cody, I'm in agreement with your thoughts on the rewiring.

Wire #7 should bring +12volts from the ignition switch - thru the interlock switches - down to engage the starter relay coil#6.

Engaging the relay should close the contacts in the relay supplying +12 volts to #4 wire which (ON MY TRACTOR) goes to a SINGLE terminal on the starter bendix.

That makes perfect sense. I did not want to blindly recommend that rewiring. I do not fully understand why your starter bendix would have TWO push on terminals - unless its just a simple explanation of the bendix counting on the wire for its ground - and not on a physical connection to the starter ground case.

My next step would be remove #7 from the bendix. (can't imagine a direct connection from the ignition switch down to the bendix solenoid - unless this is a botched attempt at bypassing the pto and seat interlock switches).

Ohm out the bare push on contact on the starter relay #6 to ground, You will probably get a resistance of 10 ohms or greater. This would indicate it is the coil in the relay and it would be safe to connect wire #7 to this bare push on terminal.

Leave wire #4 disconnected from the starter.

Flip the ignition switch to start - you should here relay #6 click. That would confirm energizing of the starter lockout relay #6.

I have reviewed several Onan repair manuals last night and only saw references to one wiring connection to the bendix solenoid. Maybe there is an alternate configuration of this solenoid that needs both a ground wire and a starter wire #4.

Maybe someone with your exact model could chime in here with confirmation of the dual push on configuration of bendix solenoids ? If not, after we confirm lockout relay #6 to be functional, we could ohm out the bendix solenoid to see which terminal requires a ground connection and which one would require connection to the #4 starter wire.

As you can see, when in doubt, I do not guess, Especially with other people's money, time and hardware.

[Cody 242]

Chuck i can not thank you enough for all of your help so far. I do know that the solenoid #6 has two flat terminals because the solenoids with 2 flat terminals require an external ground and the solenoids with one flat terminal are grounded internally. The starter bendix where #7 is connected only has that one flat post. I am almost positive that the red wire that has the fuse block is correct for being on #2 but i am unsure if the second red wire on #2 is correct. My thaughts are that the solenoid #6 went bad so the PO bypassed it and went to the starter. (i bought a gt14 from the same owner and it was wired with wire used in houses ) i can ohm out any wires you want if that would make things any easier. And thank you for all of the research you have done.

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

Cody,

thanks for the update. I misunderstood about 2 terminals being present on the bendix. The 2 terminals on the lockout relay makes perfect sense.

So with that having been cleared up

here is what i think is the right wiring scheme

Attached Image

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

Just an after thought ....

the previous wiring setup may have been a little rough on the ignition switch contacts when #7 wire was connected directly to the bendix solenoid.

A check / replacement of the ignition switch may still be needed to get the tractor back in shape.

Heav(ier) than normal current draw thru the starter contacts in the ignition switch may have damaged those contacts.

Keep us updated :D

[Cody 242]

Chuck, that wireing diagram you made makes perfect sense, i am going to replace the solenoid #6 and most likely replace the key switch too. hopefully i will get a chance to work on it tomorrow and saturday. Ill let you know how it turns out. Thank you so much for your help.

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

You are welcome sir.

I wish you good luck with the last steps of the repair.