Plumbing pipe question

[Coadster32 793]

Two questions.

1) I recently purchased a Kohler cimmeron toilet. It's a new low water usage design. From what I hear from other plumbers, and homeowners, they don't use enough water. They flush good, but don't have enough volume to ride the main line clear, and eventually, (1/2 year or so), need to get roto-rootered out. I was going on 5 months, and bam! Main line clogged. The waste line is vented properly, so I'm sure that's not the issue. I did also install a food waste disposer at approx. the same time, but don't think that's the cause. I have heard of others putting a different "flowmaster" system in their toilets to increase water volume. The plumbers say these newer toilets keep them busy. Truth to this all?

2) I replumbed my whole house, supply lines, and waste lines. I have a tankless water heater that works great. I ran 3/4 pipe main, and break off to each outlet,sink,etc. with 1/2. All copper. When I put in the sinks, I noticed that they really go down to 1/4 or 3/8 hole sizes. The question is would I benefit from running a short 3/4 main, and then branching off into 3/8 lines to the sinks? Hot water only. The water volume difference sitting in the pipes that would need to be evacuated before you actually get hot water should be alot, no? I'm thinking this would also cut down the time the hot water takes to get there by alot also. Is it worth doing? Yes, it's be a little bit more work for me, but the long time payoff might be worth it.

[W9JAB 156]

The plumbers say these newer toilets keep them busy. Truth to this all?

Yes the low flow set by the jerks in congress (who know sh*t) do keep the plumbers busy, so get used to the idea of one flush for yellow two-three for brown.

Redoing the feed lines at this point would not make any difference as the end reduction will determine the gpm.

:thumbs:

[rmaynard 16,656]

I have the same toilet. Been using it for 4 years now. You would think with the size of the flapper inside the tank, you would get a decent flush, however...

I have had many clogs in the toilet itself, but never any problem in the waste line.

I have found through experience, that I will flush and release for yellow water, and flush and hold until everything is gone for the bulky stuff.

Designed to save water, but they waste more than they save due to the multiple flushes necessary to clear the bowl.

IDIOTS run our country.

Bob

[buckrancher 2,695]

keep your main line at 3/4" then drop to 1/2" like you have it if you shrink

the size of the suppy pipe to soon you can starve the flow to the faucet

(my father was a pumber oil burner repair man for 48 years)

[chazm 413]

Hey Coadster gotta lov that tankless water heater

We put one in our new house last year & its "Da Bomb"

Now when the inlaws are here we never run out of hot water

:WRS:

[rmaynard 16,656]

Hey Coadster gotta lov that tankless water heater

We put one in our new house last year & its "Da Bomb"

Now when the inlaws are here we never run out of hot water

Hey MOCC,

Is yours gas or electric. I understand the electrics aren't too good.

Bob

[chazm 413]

Hi Bob - ours is gas & works great- its a whole house unit

My wife had an single sink ele. unit install at her dinner

She says its not as hot & there is no t-stst for it like the one we have here at the house

(sorry Coadster ,didn't mean to seal your post)

Chaz :thumbs:

[Sparky-(Admin) 23,916]

1) I recently purchased a Kohler cimmeron toilet.

Chris, just imagine the problems you would be telling us about if you had bought the Tecumseh Cimmeron Toilet instead of the Kohler !

Mike..........

PS, sorry I cant help but I know nuttin about plumbing.

[sorekiwi 761]

1) I recently purchased a Kohler cimmeron toilet.

Chris, just imagine the problems you would be telling us about if you had bought the Tecumseh Cimmeron Toilet instead of the Kohler !

Mike..........

It surprises me that this country hasnt instead gone for the common toilet system they use back home in New Zealand.

Its a normal size tank on the back of the toilet, but it has two buttons for flushing - a half flush for the yellow, and the full flush if you need it.

Seems like the best of both worlds... :banghead:

[bork 0]

1) I recently purchased a Kohler cimmeron toilet.

Chris, just imagine the problems you would be telling us about if you had bought the Tecumseh Cimmeron Toilet instead of the Kohler !

Mike..........

PS, sorry I cant help but I know nuttin about plumbing.

I really dis-like the cimmeron , old ladies cloggem up! I'd try to get your money back. Even the name erks me! Simmer Moron, turd, so you'll flush when mush!

[Coadster32 793]

What is cost me to snake out the main, I would not have saved in a year with the water bill. I'd rather have my old 5 gallon flusher back. (although the 1/2 flush idea is nice for the yellow stuff).

Sparky.. that's funny stuff.

My hot water thought was if you have to evacuate the cold water out of a 3/4 inch pipe before you get the hot water to come out a 3/8 hole, why not run 3/8 pipe to that faucet? Much less volume to evacuate, saving water, and mostly, the time to get the hot water out of the faucet.

The cimmeron is pretty cool with the wife swinging her feet off of it.

(that's not meant to be dirty, it's a higher toilet than normal)

[chazm 413]

Don't know about the snake cost.

My tankless takes a min. or 2 for the hot water to flow & I have 3/8 pex thru-out the house - Just nature of the beast I guess

Chaz :banghead:

[linen beige 16]

then branching off into 3/8 lines to the sinks?

Code won't allow less than 1/2 copper inside the walls.

[Save Old Iron 1,573]

Coadster,

we live in the country on well water and 3 girls in the family - so water usage is important here.

I installed a "turboflush" pressurized toilet made by Sloan - this was about 18 years ago. Never a problem with pipe blockage. The turbo only uses 1.3 gallons per flush.

If your pipes are getting clogged, that usually indicates too severe of a slope from the house to the septic tank. For lack of a better way to put it - the liquids drain away too fast and leave the solids behind in the pipe. A lesser slope will allow the solids to float down to the tank along with the liquids.

just a thought from a logical virtual plumber (handyman)!

[Save Old Iron 1,573]

It surprises me that this country hasnt instead gone for the common toilet system they use back home in New Zealand.

Its a normal size tank on the back of the toilet, but it has two buttons for flushing - a half flush for the yellow, and the full flush if you need it.

Mike,

"If it's yellow, let it mellow. If it's brown, flush it down."

that might make you feel closer to home. :thumbs:

[Duff 206]

It surprises me that this country hasnt instead gone for the common toilet system they use back home in New Zealand.

Its a normal size tank on the back of the toilet, but it has two buttons for flushing - a half flush for the yellow, and the full flush if you need it.

Seems like the best of both worlds...

When my office complex was renovated a few years back they somehow got hold of one of those dual-flow, double-button flush-a-ma-bobs. I think it said on the tag on the tank that it was made in Australia. I gotta tell ya, it worked some slick!

Then they relocated the bathroom it had been in to elsewhere in the building and the unit simply disappeared, replaced by a standard pressure-driven, tankless unit. So much for progress......

Duff :banghead:

[Coadster32 793]

Code won't allow less than 1/2 copper inside the walls.

What's the prob. with 3/8 in the wall

It doesn't take extremely long for the 3/4 to evacuate, but with the 3/8 pex idea, it wouldn't be that hard to run the smaller line to the sinks.

[bork 0]

The pex & poly stuff scare me. I'll stick to copper for now, unless there is a problem with the ph in water. I agree that 3/8 would get hot there quicker, but tell that to the inspectors. But who knows, maybe code will change some day, as the toilets did. BTW if you have cast iron waste lines, like I do, the pressure 1.6 flush still clogged up my lines. I kept the old toilet.(thank goodness) Took a while to figure out,(months of blaming my wife) but after reinstalling the old toilet, NO more problems!

[linen beige 16]

The problem is pressure (head) loss. 1/2 has roughly half the head loss of 3/8, and 3/8 can only feed one fixture The added friction inside 3/8 will cause much more noise as well. That shouldn't really be an issue with the newer low flow fixtures but the codes haven't been updated to address that. The code just doesn't allow enclosed 3/8ths in copper. Minimum 1/2 to within 30 inches of the fixture and it has to extend into the area occupied by that fixture. That means 1/2 has to come out of your wall or floor before you can drop to 3/8 for individual supplies.

Pex is a different story. It's new enough to the supply line game that codes are still being developed. It also is much more likely to be fed to each fixture individually from a large central manifold. 3/8 Pex can usually be enclosed, but can feed only one fixture per line.

But rather than ripping out all your work I think a better solution would be to install recirculating pumps on the fixtures that are far from your heater. They pump the cold water in the line back to the heater when you turn on a faucet. Instant (or nearly so) hot water.

As for the low flow toilets clogging your pipes, I think SOI may be on to something. It's at least worth checking. Any slope between 1/4 inch per foot and 12 inches per foot (45 deg angle) can cause the liquids to out run the solids. Minimum is 1/8 inch per foot. When you re-plumbed did you connect new PVC DWV to an older cast iron waste line where it exits? That connection may have given you a low spot at the hub.

You mentioned the food disposer. Do you also have a dishwaher? Most plumbers agree that a dishwasher and food disposer sharing a drain is THE best insurance for keeping that drain clean. Given that, unless you're stuffing things down the disposer that it isn't designed to handle, or just not running enough water when using it, it shouldn't be a problem.

[W9JAB 156]

[Coadster32 793]

When I replaced all of the copper waste lines with pvc, I kept the same run and location as the original. The smaller lines like the bathroom sink were moved, but those won't clog anyhow. I hooked into the cast that runs under the basement floor, and was existing. (that's where the clog was, under the floor, before it exits the house) The dishwasher is hooked into the kitchen sink where the food waste disposer is. They are located at the furthest, and highest, end of the run. The toilet was moved only 3ft from original location, and that's pretty much right next to the cast. It could be it was just time to clean it out, but

I understand what you mean about the 1/2 coming near the fixture, and the pex. Being old-school, I guess I was alot more comfortable using copper. I guess in hind-sight, I would prob. only save a couple extra minutes. I put the water heater under the bathroom, and the kitchen is the next room over. The downstairs bathroom is quite a bit away though (most of which is 1/2).

[oldandred 15]

Two questions.

1) I recently purchased a Kohler cimmeron toilet. It's a new low water usage design. From what I hear from other plumbers, and homeowners, they don't use enough water. They flush good, but don't have enough volume to ride the main line clear, and eventually, (1/2 year or so), need to get roto-rootered out. I was going on 5 months, and bam! Main line clogged. The waste line is vented properly, so I'm sure that's not the issue. I did also install a food waste disposer at approx. the same time, but don't think that's the cause. I have heard of others putting a different "flowmaster" system in their toilets to increase water volume. The plumbers say these newer toilets keep them busy. Truth to this all?

2) I replumbed my whole house, supply lines, and waste lines. I have a tankless water heater that works great. I ran 3/4 pipe main, and break off to each outlet,sink,etc. with 1/2. All copper. When I put in the sinks, I noticed that they really go down to 1/4 or 3/8 hole sizes. The question is would I benefit from running a short 3/4 main, and then branching off into 3/8 lines to the sinks? Hot water only. The water volume difference sitting in the pipes that would need to be evacuated before you actually get hot water should be alot, no? I'm thinking this would also cut down the time the hot water takes to get there by alot also. Is it worth doing? Yes, it's be a little bit more work for me, but the long time payoff might be worth it.

Is that a gas wh or electric ??

[sorekiwi 761]

Mike,

"If it's yellow, let it mellow. If it's brown, flush it down."

that might make you feel closer to home.

I havent heard that for a while, Chuck.

But yes I've heard it...

[bork 0]

Mike,

"If it's yellow, let it mellow. If it's brown, flush it down."

that might make you feel closer to home.

I havent heard that for a while, Chuck.

But yes I've heard it...

Dont fergit to put your pants on right! Yellow front. brown back! :WRS:

[Save Old Iron 1,573]

Dont fergit to put your pants on right! Yellow front. brown back!