Electrolysis Tank

[chesbaycruiser 82]

OK, like so many others here, I've been drawn to the whole "e-tank" thing. So I made one--kind of a "test bed" if you will. I used an old 5 gallon bucket, 3 36" steel rods (cut in half), some wire, connectors, etc. I found the Washing Soda at our local supermarket, and hooked the whole thing up to my 10 amp battery charger (via a battery, as my charger is "automatic").

My question for some of you electro-chemical experts out there....does anyone have any formula, or equation, experience, or just an educated guess on how much amperage is needed for a given volume of water? Is 55 gallons too much for my meager 10 amp charger.

I'm guessing it's really a question of speed and efficiency?

Thanks in advance for your input,

Chris

My high-end tank

Wire connectors courtesy of Home Depot, steel from TSC

Add a rusty part...

Into the tank...

Bubbling...

Short Video (from my phone) of the tank bubbling....

The finished product, after about 8 hours...

[bork 0]

Wow, looks good. Is the any reason why we cant put different anode material in to help reduce rusting? Like a copper pipe or zink? after the rust removal proccess is done.

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

Chris,

everything in electronics is based off a simple equation called Ohms Law

E = I x R

E = voltage - your battery charger voltage ( about 14 volts)

I = amperage or the reading on your battery charger gauge (lets say 10 amps)

R = resistance in ohms determined by a few "physical factors" in your E tank.

so lets say your charger's indication is 10 amps on the gauge

E = I x R

14volts = 10 amps x Resistance

to figure resistance between the positive and negative connections in your tank - transpose the formula to read

E/ I = R

14 volts

----------- = resistance in ohms

10 amps

so 14 / 10 = 1.4 ohms - this is the equivalent resistance of ALL pathways between ALL electrodes and the part you are processing.

Current will DECREASE if

1/ you remove some of your iron flats from the + connection to your battery charger

2/ your battery charger leads are corroded and do not make good contact with the iron flats or your part you wish to derust

3/ the "red rust" on your part is all converted to "black rust" and the process is finished

4/ you move your + iron flats further away from the object your derusting

5/ your iron flats become "gunked up"

I'm sure there may be another one or two reasons I can't think of here at 2 a.m.

a few tips ...

adding additional washing soda to the tank will not derust the part faster - the water is saturated with washing soda at about 1 cup per 5 gallons - 1 or 2 tablespoons per gallon will work fine - think of it as adding more sugar to water to make it sweeter - only so much sugar can be dissolved before it precipitates out of the water - the rest is wasted money.

the size of the tank does not directly determine amperage drawn from the battery charger - amperage is directly related to surface area of the part being processed and the surface area of the iron anodes you surround the part with. More water only equates to more amperage if it allows more surface area of the part and the anodes to be exposed to one another thru the water/ electrolyte.

so for all practical purposes ....

anode surface area + derusting part surface area = total battery current

(the distance from the anodes to the derusting part varies the total current but not in a very linear fashion - doubling the distance from the anode to the part does not halve the current but it will decrease it.)

So ....

pick the size of your tank to match the part you need to process.

surround the part with sufficient anodes to allow all surfaces of the processed part to be in "line of sight" to one or more of the anodes (on your tank I might suggest bending one of the anodes in an L shape so it lays across the bottom of the tank to derust the bottom of the part hanging in the tank)

position the anodes as close to the rusty part as possible - separate the anodes from the rusty part if you start to exceed the amp capacity of your charger. Always leave some space (1 - 2 inches) between the part and the anodes to allow for bumping of the tank or slight movement of the rusty part within the tank.

check your current flow on the charger gauge - if it's near the max setting of your charger, your good to go

if you have say 5 amps flowing and have a 10 amp charger, you can add more anodes to the tank. Remember, smaller parts will not develop a large current flow - you have to have a lot of surface area to get higher current flow. Derusting a nail will not produce the same current flow as derusting a fender pan with several square feet of surface area.

remember - its the CURRENT that makes the process work - the more current flow, the faster the part will derust.

THE MORE CURRENT FLOW THE GREATER THE RELEASE OF HYDROGEN GAS PER UNIT OF TIME - meaning a higher hydrogen gas concentration is going to be present in the area of the tank. Mainly a concern only in enclosed areas.

[GlenPettit 1,714]

Chuck:

Excellent explaination of this whole process, I am right with you and really do understand it in detail now, simple and to the point.

Thanks,

[chesbaycruiser 82]

Chuck,

That is exactly what I was looking for....Thanks!!!!

I must add here that based on this excellent explanation, as well as others that you have provided, I hereby make an Official Red Square Motion that we change your handle to "Google", which as we all know is the font of all knowledge

Thanks again (and again),

Chris

[rick 216]

Darn, I wish I had paid more attention in algebra class! I have never been too good at

"intangible" things. It's easier for me if I can get my hands a problem instead of trying to get my head around it, LOL!

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

I must add here that based on this excellent explanation, as well as others that you have provided, I hereby make an Official Red Square Motion that we change your handle to "Google", which as we all know is the font of all knowledge

call me anything but don't call me late for dinner

maybe I'll compromise and settle for CHUCKLE or possibly CHOOGLE

but thanks for the kind words - its all really quiet simple once you look at each factor individually and play with one factor at a time

glad to help

:notworthy:

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

Darn, I wish I had paid more attention in algebra class! I have never been too good at

"intangible" things. It's easier for me if I can get my hands a problem instead of trying to get my head around it, LOL!

Rick, I'm right there with you on the hands on approach, Visual and touch is the way I learn best but I always like to follow up what I learn with a little bit of theory ( usually acquired from the page searches of Google) some ciphering and gazintes.

And when theory matches real world experiences, then the smile forms on my face. :notworthy:

[~ETC~ 0]

what are you guys calling washing soda

prob a dumb question but ive never heard of such a thing

[CasualObserver 3,406]

what are you guys calling washing soda

prob a dumb question but ive never heard of such a thing

Not a dumb question at all....

Also check out this old thread from the FAQ section

http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/index.php?showtopic=3799

[linen beige 14]

what are you guys calling washing soda

prob a dumb question but ive never heard of such a thing

The ingredient you need is sodium carbonate. Also known as soda ash. The Arm & Hammer washing soda is almost pure sodium carbonate. If you can't find the washing soda, baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) will work. You may also try a pool chemical dealer since soda ash is used as a PH increaser. Lowes sells a Dupont PH increaser that is 100% sodium carbonate.

[WheelHorse_of_course 99]

OK, since we are getting into this in more depth...

Is rust required, or would this work to remove grime and paint without actually rust?

What is happening in the tank. Is the iron oxide changing to something else (black?)?

Is this similar to what happens with one of the "rust converter" products which turn to rust.

If one used sodium chloride (table salt) would this have the opposite effect (of eating away the steel?

And to further drift... I know that on boats the use a sacrificial zink anode (?) on the propeller shaft to reduce corrosion on the engine block.

I have always wondered if you put zink strips around the circumference of a vehicle if the would reduce corrosion (of the vehicle that is, of course the zinc would get eaten away).

:banghead:

[tophatbufflo 2]

I believe in an earler topic or at a website referenced there it said stainless and zinc were dangerous because of the gas it produced

[kpinnc 10,767]

I believe in an earler topic or at a website referenced there it said stainless and zinc were dangerous because of the gas it produced

Almost- Copper and zinc will cause the tank to build up a green or orange slime on everything. If you use anything other than steel, it makes a big mess. It won't affect how well it works, it's just messy.

Hydrogen gas is created (regardless of what metal you put in the tank) by the "fizzing", and is extremely flammable. Keep your tank outdoors!

Stainless is what creates problems. Even though some people use it, I would not if I were you. The benefit does not outweigh the danger. The process creates hexavalent chromium, which is extremely toxic for everything- Grass, animals, and you. It is also illegal to dump and must be disposed of as a toxic material. I would imagine such a thing is expensive.

Kevin

[linen beige 14]

Ordinary table salt can be used as an electrolyte. BUT, it releases chlorine gas. That is something you DO NOT want to breathe.

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

What is happening in the tank. Is the iron oxide changing to something else (black?)?

The iron will be in one of two "rust states"- ferrous or ferric- depending on the amount of oxygen attached to each molecule of iron

Ferric (red rust) has 3 oxygen molecules and the electrolysis process changes the red rust to ferrous (black) iron (having only 2 oxygen molecules).

Ferrous (black) iron is soluble in water. That is why you can wipe the black rust off a finished part with a wet rag but couldn't wipe off the red rust from the same part before you put it in the tank.

Ferric (red) iron is insoluble and will precipitate (form a solid) as an orange/yellow compound called yellowboy ( this I know from growing up in mining town USA, Scranton Penna).

Yellowboy causes the orange sludge coatings on the bottom of the electrolysis tank.

and finally ...

When the red rust is all changed to black rust, the reaction stops (current decreases)

I have no idea how rust converter paint works - or if it actually does work well.

:thumbs:

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

Ordinary table salt can be used as an electrolyte. BUT, it releases chlorine gas. That is something you DO NOT want to breathe.

Hey Jim,

sniffing Chlorine might be a step-up from sniffing the fumes produced from other projects I see on this site !!

Safety first young ones, safety first.

[linen beige 14]

Hey Jim,

sniffing Chlorine might be a step-up from sniffing the fumes produced from other projects I see on this site !!

Safety first young ones, safety first.

:thumbs:

[WheelHorse_of_course 99]

Hey Jim,

sniffing Chlorine might be a step-up from sniffing the fumes produced from other projects I see on this site !!

Safety first young ones, safety first.

Chlorine gas is not something I would joke about.

My high school chemistry teacher told us that if we took one thing away from the class he hoped it was this...

You wouldn't drink an unknown yellow liquid, and you would eat yellow snow.... so for gosh sakes stay away if you see a cloud of yellow gas.

When there is a chlorine leak it is very common for people to think the can just drive through it - not wise

Happy New Year to all

:thumbs:

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

Chlorine gas is not something I would joke about.

Rolf,

I understand your concern.

Feel free to chime in with your opinion on melting lead, reckless tractor destruction, and bypassing safety switches. I must have overlooked your posts when those safety issues were raised.

To paraphrase an old saying "All it takes for Evil (or often time Stupidity) to succeed is for good men to stand by and do (or say) nothing".

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

"facetious"

(fuh-SEE-shus)

adjective

Jocular or humorous, often inappropriately.

[WheelHorse_of_course 99]

inappropriately.

[Dresden Guy 24]

Save Old Iron:

I would be interested in your thoughts as to ease of use, cost, and safety of the E-tank removal of rust vs. a product I heard of on RS, called EvapoRust. I thoroughly appreciated and understood you detailed explanation of E=I X R, being an old chemistry major from The Ohio State. But, it seems that as there are so many different sizes of parts, you may need 5 gallon bucket for some items, 20 gallon washtub for some, and plastic 55 gallon barrel for others. Am I right? What is your setup(s) to account for tiny to very large rusted parts? I am getting ready to de-rust my C-160, albeit not extensive, it seems the E-tank(s) could take time and money for one (1) restore. The results from the E-tank are impressive, but wonder what EvapoRust does?

Yes, I will probably more tractor restores, but for now.....

Thanks for all your great detail and thorough explanantions!!!

[linen beige 14]

I can't help you with the Evaporust question, but a simple answer to the tank size one is as follows.

It is not the size of the tank that determines effectiveness, but the distance between the part being cleaned and the sacrificial electrodes. You want the pieces as close to one another as possible, without touching. Make your tank so that the sacrificial pieces can be adjusted and the smallest parts can be cleaned in the largest of tanks.

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

What is your setup(s) to account for tiny to very large rusted parts?

Exactly Sir,

Setup(s) with an capital S

I have 3 different setups for different uses.

SoreKiwi showed us the (currently) World's Smallest E tank, made from a yogurt container

Stig sparked our imaginations with the 250 gallon Hindenburg Mark 1

Many more efforts are recorded here in various "Goldy locks" sizes - not too big and not too small.

That's the beauty of E tanks. The tanks can be made any size and really any shape from a variety of materials.

My tanks include a variety of Tupperware containers - a 5 gallon for smaller pieces - a 25 gallon for mid sized pieces and a large and somewhat flexible 50 gallon "toughie" garbage can that can be stuffed with oddball pieces such as fenders pans. The 50 gallon flexible container will deform enough to allow larger pieces to fit. I just removed a fender pan from one last night and inserted most of the vacuum attachment for lawn cleanup back into the same tank.

Always something cooking in the E- tanks at Iron's house !

Be creative too. The rubber liner used for backyard goldfish ponds can easily be framed with 2x lumber to create special shapes and sizes of e-tanks. I was considering making a tank 3 ft x 3 ft x 8 inches deep just to to do seat pans.

You could create a 5 ft x 2 ft x 1ft enclosure to do frames. Long skinny pieces could be set in a sluice pipe sliced in half and lined with the rubber pond liner. The possibilities are endless.

I have to admit I have never tried Evaporust. I can't even guess what reaction takes p;ace with the iron. Its seems to be a neutral ph - so its not acid. No odor - so its not heavy into volatile solvents. Maybe someone knows if its just an oxidation process with something like a jelled hydrogen peroxide solution - I have no idea. I looked at their MSDS sheets and all the health risks are at "0"'s. About as dangerous as water !!

As far as cost comparisons, a 24 hour period of derusting in the E tank - lets say at a 5 amp flow = 5amps x 14 volts = 60 watts of power. 24 hours x 60 watts = 1.44 kilowatt hours. So if your paying say 15 cents per kilowatt hour 1.44 x 0.15 = 22cents worth of power consumed.

I would say E tanking will be much cheaper than the Evaporust process. Of course you need 4 - 5 pieces of rebar, a plastic garbage can or container and a battery charger. So there is a few dollars involved if your starting from scratch.

The one GREAT ADVANTAGE I see to the e-tank is rust removal is accomplished at a molecular level - left in the tank long enough, all red rust is converted to black rust which can easily be brushed or washed off the object.

I do use chemical stripper on my hoods to remove 90% of the paint. Then I put them in the E tank which removes 98% of the paint and rust. Then a quick shot with coal slag blast media and the part is rust free at a molecular level, with little wear on my blast media and compressor setup. I let the stripper do the hardest part of the work and its very quick indeed.

Any other questions, please let me know.

And good luck with your rebuild / refresh or restoration. :party:

[bunson70 50]

Is eight hours about average time for the E tank to work? Does it take more/less time depending on the size of the part? If a person were to use 24 volts instead of 12, would it work faster? Just a few questions from a Newbie. Does this process actually remove paint? I am trying it at home for the first time. :thumbs: