Need help K341s that has been sitting for few years

[953 nut 69,839]

16 hours ago, Charrie said:

Is it normal for the breaker points to stay closed for over 1/2 turn of the crankshaft?    YES, the points remain closed about 88 % of the time if they are properly adjusted to .020" at the widest opening. You will want to clean the contact surfaces using a brown paper bag or a dollar bill to remove any corrosion. I feel that the most accurate method for setting points is "Static Timing. The points gap not only induces a spark when the points first open, but the points gap sets the ignition timing for your engine. I have attached a YouTube about static timing, To find the timing marks on the flywheel I have found it helpful to wrap some sandpaper over the end of a wood dowel placed through the timing hole in the flywheel cover and turn over the engine with the spark plug removed. you may need to do this more than once to find the marks. The marks will be near the point where the crank is at TDC. When the crank is at TDC the keyway on the PTO side of the crank will also be at the top so you don't have to sand off the whole flywheel, just rock it back and forth an eighth of a turn either side of TDC.

PS,   The condenser doesn't produce spark as stated by the previous poster, It protects the points from an arc that occurs when the points open. The ignition coil primary has electrical flow through when the points are closed inducing a magnetic field in the secondary windings of the coil, the moment the points open this magnetic field collapses causing a momentary high voltage discharge to the spark plug.

16 hours ago, Charrie said:

I am thinking that i need to remove the carb and disassemble it to see what shape it is in      Good idea, start out with a total clean up of the fuel system and use non-ethanol gas to keep it that way. The disassembled carb and all its parts should be socked in a carb cleaner for several hours. The small passages that can get plugged all need to be cleaned up. You may want to find someone who already has the cleaner and some experience if you don't intend to do more than just this one carb. 

 

16 hours ago, Charrie said:

The side of the coil wire that goes into the coil was very black. The coil itself looked like new and the PO said that he had replaced it. What can cause that as it fit pretty snug into the socket? I cleaned it. My guess is that some water got into the top of the top post of the old coil and the PO never bothered to clean the wire up like you did.

 

 

Edited October 24 by 953 nut
Wrong YouTube

[Handy Don 17,571]

Just noting here that some early S/G K181s (and possibly other engines?) predate the compression release mechanism to help with starting. Instead, they use a mechanical system to retard the spark past TDC until the engine is running. On these, a static timing check is not definitive but setting the points gap is the same. 

[953 nut 69,839]

1 hour ago, Gasaholic said:

points closed means capacitor recharging so when they pop open (usually open just a few degrees) that sudden collapse of electrical flow is discharged from the capacitor which induces the voltage in the secondary winding to produce spark.  

You may want to rethink that , the IGNITION COIL is doing that, not the condenser (Capacitor) it protects the point from an arc.

 

[953 nut 69,839]

8 hours ago, Handy Don said:

Just noting here that some early S/G K181s (and possibly other engines?) predate the compression release mechanism to help with starting. Instead, they use a mechanical system to retard the spark past TDC until the engine is running. On these, a static timing check is not definitive but setting the points gap is the same. 

Yes they did but never were used on a K-341.

Ignition timing on Kohler engines.

 

Gapping the ignition points at .020 has always been the standard answer to how points should be set. That probably will get you into the ballpark where the engine will run, but with a bit of additional effort you can improve the engine’s power and performance.

The Kohler engine manual in the Red Square files section covers two methods for setting the ignition timing, Static Timing and using a Timing Light. This manual is a relatively new manual and it overlooks the fact that many of our engines were built prior to the ACR (automatic compression release) camshaft.

Earlier engines (mostly 1965 and earlier) had a Spark Advance camshaft that can not be timed using Static timing. At rest (and very low RPMs) the timing is retarded to fire slightly after TDC. The timing mark (SP) on your flywheel is at twenty degrees before top dead center but at rest the points on these engines break about ten degrees after top dead center. The only reliable way to check or set the timing on these engines is with a timing light.

There are a couple ways to determine what camshaft you have. Presuming the camshaft in your engine is the one it was born with the data plate on the engine has a suffix that can tell you what camshaft was used. The table below will tell you the suffix applicable to your engine. The other way to determine what camshaft you have is to remove the cam gear cover and take a look. If you see a mechanism attached to the cam gear it is the ACR cam.

 

 

The following engines have the spark advance camshaft;

K-141, Suffix prior to “C”

K-161, Suffix prior to “J”

K-181, Suffix prior to “D”

K-241, Suffix prior to “D”

 

With the spark advance cam the timing site hole is located in the bearing plate below the Starter / Generator

Edited October 25 by 953 nut
add photo

[Charrie 25]

Thanks Gasaholic 

I will find TDC when I do remove the cylinder head and have the blower cover off. 

 

I will post a different pic of the two jet adjustment screws and get your opinion.I believe that the other forum was talking about drilling or enlarging the hole at the tip for the reasons you mentioned at idle. 

The new adjustment screw has two extra holes half way up. They may be the ones you are talking about when you say:

"However if you find holes in the middle of the thin tube in middle of the venturi it's rather important to NOT alter those holes which are very precisely jetted unless you really know exactly what you're doing"

 

 

So Today I removed the carb and took it apart. Before taking it apart I cleaned th eoutside and WOW I was amazed how well it looked. But then I took off the bowl.   All in all it cleaned up pretty good i believe but I am not that experienced with corroded carbs. Though there was white powder corrosion inside the throat and very minor rust on the choke plate, I was able to use round brass brushes to clean it.

 

Question 

1- The needle valve and seat appeared to be new. The rubber tip on the needle valve is somewhat soft and pliable. I do not have the thin socket needed to remove the needle valve seat. Do you think i should replace it or try this one? I do have a new one in a kit but I am not sure how old the kit is. 

 

2- I was going to remove the main high speed jet (for easier cleaning) that you  see so badly corroded but the slot for the screwdriver  chipped off when I tired to back it out so i cleaned it best i could and i believe it will be fine as the metal was not pitted. 

 

3- I also have a new bowl, brass float i will be using so hopefully it will be good to go. when spraying carb cleaner in all of the passages, nothing appeared to be the least bit clogged. Is there anything that I'm missing here?

 

4- Oh, the seat and seat pan has to come off to remove the fueltank correct?

 

Thanks

Charrie. 

 

 

 

 

[Charrie 25]

One more question.

Should I try to clean the intake valve area in the block while I have the carb off? 

IF so, using a wire brush on a drill might damage the valve stem I would think. Maybe best to use some tool or tools to scrape the inside while using air to blow it out?

 

I ask because there is a some flakey black like crud in there along with a rusty area. I have no idea how the moisture got in there. When i bought the tractor, there was a filter in the breather. I removed the filter itself about a month ago but put the breathing housing back together so no rein could get in there. The inside of the carb also had a good bit of white oxidation inside the throat but I was able to clean it fairly good.

 

Thanks 

Charrie

[Gasaholic 396]

19 hours ago, 953 nut said:

You may want to rethink that , the IGNITION COIL is doing that, not the condenser (Capacitor) it protects the point from an arc.

 

Yep. brain fart while typing . meant the *COIL* is "recharging" - reaching saturation - Too short of a dwell time, and you get a weak spark because coil isn't fully saturated. - it's not "instant" (even an incandescent light bulb takes time to come up to full brightness, as well as a cooldown time - if lightbulb had a place for that saturation to go instantly , like say, a secondary winding, it'd blink out faster... ) 

 

[Charrie 25]

 Minor update and a couple of questions.

  I am back to babysitting my grandchild most of the day and so haven't had much time to spend with the horse. I have the carb back together and the mounting flange was a little warped so I used some sand paper on a piece of glass and fixed that. Changed the oil and have 5W 30 in there for testing. After draining the oil I noticed some dark material in the bottom of the plastic oil pan. It did not feel like metal but more like some of the dirt/dust that collects on the frame around the engine so maybe some fell in. I will pay much more attention when I dump out the test oil. 

 

  Before I put the carb back on, I plan to adjust the valves. That seems simple enough I believe. 

 

When putting the carb back on, I read and watched a video about which gasket or gaskets to use but they really didn't go into much detail as to why. I have the single thin gasket to go between the carb and block. I also have a set that is two thin gaskets and one 1/4" spacer. That set is actually part of the set I posted a pick of earlier. I read that using the thicker spacer helps itemize the fuel and keep the carb flange from warping. The video said either would be fine. What are you guys thoughts? 

 

 

 

 

 

I know this is getting way ahead for now but tossing around some thoughts, Balance Gears?

I have been reading and learning about them, pros and cons. Its my  understanding that my K341S should certainly have them.

Kohler 

Model: K341s

Spec. No. 71371

Serial No. 15060263

 

I bought some deep discounted spare parts from the store up the road that was closing. In those was 1- new style balance gear with bearing installed. 2- balance shafts and, 2- balance gear needle bearings. So except for one gear and possible shim kit, I have everything to replace them back to factory spec if that choice was made. 

 

I Save Tractors shows installing them and I watched a JD video of a guy replacing his after finding out his were about to explode on him. I have probably already read a couple of you guys opninions on this subject but since I basically have the parts, ?

 

Thanks

Charrie

 

 

[ineedanother 2,882]

16 minutes ago, Charrie said:

 Minor update and a couple of questions.

  I am back to babysitting my grandchild most of the day and so haven't had much time to spend with the horse. I have the carb back together and the mounting flange was a little warped so I used some sand paper on a piece of glass and fixed that. Good practice. Changed the oil and have 5W 30 in there for testing. After draining the oil I noticed some dark material in the bottom of the plastic oil pan. It did not feel like metal but more like some of the dirt/dust that collects on the frame around the engine so maybe some fell in. I will pay much more attention when I dump out the test oil. 

 

  Before I put the carb back on, I plan to adjust the valves. That seems simple enough I believe. Yep. Do that. Pretty simple and good regular maintenance.

 

When putting the carb back on, I read and watched a video about which gasket or gaskets to use but they really didn't go into much detail as to why. I have the single thin gasket to go between the carb and block. I also have a set that is two thin gaskets and one 1/4" spacer. That set is actually part of the set I posted a pick of earlier. I read that using the thicker spacer helps itemize atomize (spell check hates that word ) the fuel and keep the carb flange from warping. The video said either would be fine. What are you guys thoughts? A good seal is good, don't overthink it.

 

I know this is getting way ahead for now but tossing around some thoughts, Balance Gears? Well-maintained balance gears are fine IMO, but if any question about wear just get rid of them. I have 4 K-341 and they get trashed when I open them up. I would not keep them.

I have been reading and learning about them, pros and cons. Its my  understanding that my K341S should certainly have them.

Kohler 

Model: K341s

Spec. No. 71371

Serial No. 15060263

 

I bought some deep discounted spare parts from the store up the road that was closing. In those was 1- new style balance gear with bearing installed. 2- balance shafts and, 2- balance gear needle bearings. So except for one gear and possible shim kit, I have everything to replace them back to factory spec if that choice was made. 

 

I Save Tractors shows installing them and I watched a JD video of a guy replacing his after finding out his were about to explode on him. I have probably already read a couple of you guys opninions on this subject but since I basically have the parts, ? Meh. I don't think they do much to eliminate vibration and would argue that they border on unnecessary over-engineering.

 

Thanks

Charrie

 

 

 

[Charrie 25]

Ok, so got the carb back on and connected a small push mower gas tank, supported above the tractor. Fuel line went from the tank to the fuel pump and then to the carb. I did not test the fuel pump.

 

The engine started right up and the carb adjusted just great. Idle was fine and throttle response was fantastic. BUT then I went to connect the choke cable and noticed the choke was closed. So at this point the engine seems to run great as long as the choke is closed all the way.  

I idled up the engine a little and opened the choke every so slightly while trying to adjust the carb. May have ran out of gas but will try again today. 

 

Thinking fuel pump,

Even though I am gravity feeding the carb right not, perhaps the valves inside the fuel pump can restrict the flow? 

The carb was grimy inside, perhaps the fuel pump might be also?

 

Thinking carburetor, 

I bought a small HF ultrasonic cleaner but didnt use it after cleaning the carb by hand as it looked pretty good. Was going to return the cleaner. Should I try using it instead?  

Is chemical carb cleaner soak better?  Can of carb cleaner at AZ = $48.00

Should I remove the welch plugs and where to find new ones?

Loose throttle rod bushing? It is not tight but far from wobbling around.There is a little side to side play.

The inside had some white powder oxidation and I used a round brass brush to clean it, perhaps some oxidation got into the small holes inside. I did use spray carb cleaner and sprayed everything well. 

I used the  original high speed needle adjuster but can try the other? 

 

Does anyone have a diagram of how fuel circuit works in the Carter N #30?

 

Thanks 

Charrie

[953 nut 69,839]

21 hours ago, Charrie said:

inside had some white powder oxidation

There are some very small passages inside the Carb. that may be plugged with that white oxidation. A dip in the Ultrasonic or the carb. cleaner is a must-do.

[Charrie 25]

Thanks for the reply.

Agreed, I will try the ultrasonic. I have never used one. After reading reviews about  the one I bought, I am going to return it and order a different brand online. Reading that many of the chemicals used can damage aluminum if you do not know what you are doing. I have  read that Simple Green Pro HD is aluminum safe and maybe a good choice for beginners.

 

 I spent a bit more time  today with  the carb. At first I still couldn't  get the engine to run without the choke being closed. Then I remembered the new high speed adjustment needle that has a few extra holes in it. After  installing it in the carb, I was able to adjust the carb with the choke wide open. It idled great but I couldn't get it quite right at high speed. it wanted to surge a little and was sluggish from idle to top end. 

 

So will try the ultrasonic cleaning and i guess followed up with a spray carb cleaner to get all the cleaning solution out of the passages.

 

Thanks

Charrie

 

[pfrederi 21,227]

I know that purple power discolors the carb body...not sure about simple green

Edited 38 minutes ago by pfrederi