Need help K341s that has been sitting for few years

[Charrie 22]

I bought a 1985 416-8 a few months back and now I an ready checkout the engine. The PO said that a few years ago he parked it for the winter and when spring came around, it wouldn't start. Said that he changed point, plug, coil, and did a little more work then gave up. Said that his Father in law bought it new in 1985 and was his baby. i think it is generally in decent shape but I question what a few years really is due so some of the rust on certain unpainted parts. Anyway that's basically what I know of its history.  The PO did say that it was running great when he parked it.

 

The day I bought it, I could turn the engine over by hand and felt some compression. Today I pulled the spark plug and put about a tablespoon of transmission fluid in the cylinder and then turned the engine over by hand a few times. No sticking places but almost felt like I could feel the pressure from the valve springs as I slowly rotated the flywheel. After about an hour I connected a battery and used the starter to turn the engine to check compression. My old gauge was reading around 40psi. I removed the gauge and added another tablespoon or two of transmission fluid hoping to get some around the valves. I re-checked the compression and this time it was around 35 psi. I have 2 gauges and one is defiantly bad so I am going to do the test again tomorrow with new o-rings on the hose. 

 

So, that is where I am at right now. I do have a few miscellaneous parts and gaskets. I also have 2 new head gaskets. Am thinking right now that low compression could be stuck ring or rings, issue with one or both valves. I can get a loaner leak down compression tester if need be. 

 

Where should I go from here? Should I pull the cylinder head off to inspect the cylinder and valves or focus on getting it to run a little and re-check the compression before tearing into the engine?

Haven't changed the engine oil yet. Should I go ahead and change it now or wait and see if I need to go into the engine? I actually have 5qt jug of oil with missing label. Either 5w 30 or 10w 40 that i can  throw in there for now and use it while trying to get it running and then flush it out. 

 

All advice on what to do is welcome!

 

Thanks Charrie

 

 

[sqrlgtr 4,033]

Hard to check compression on these old Kohlers because of the ACR (automatic compression release} design. If it where me and especially since you have head gaskets on hand I would remove head and clean everything up (decarb) good and adjust valves while I was at it. Even if it is wore pretty bad, they will run if you've got fuel, fire and compression. More than lik;y will require a carb cleaning/rebuild and I reccomend replacing all fuel line and filters. The last time I went through this the fuel pump was full of trash also. If your not worried about keeping absolutely original an electric fuel pump is a great upgrade.

[ri702bill 13,119]

True about Kohlers with the ACR - that runs by centrifugal force - and is open under 700 or so RPM. That is what gives the Kohler its distinctive "putt-putt-putt" sound at low idle.

Cleaning the inside of the fuel pump is an excellent recommendation - over time, the valves get crapped up and fail to seal properly..

[rmaynard 17,603]

First thing I would do is try starting it with starter fluid sprayed directly onto the carb. If it fires then you don't have spark or compression problems, just a gummed up fuel system from ethanol gas sitting in the carb, fuel pump, etc 

[Gasaholic 394]

1 hour ago, rmaynard said:

First thing I would do is try starting it with starter fluid sprayed directly onto the carb. If it fires then you don't have spark or compression problems, just a gummed up fuel system from ethanol gas sitting in the carb, fuel pump, etc 

I'd use carb & choke cleaner. Starting fluid (ether) doesn't need compression to fire off.. been there done that.. plus starting fluid aggressively scrubs away lubrication..  It'd only prove you have spark enough to light it off , and it don't take much... 

[rmaynard 17,603]

4 hours ago, Gasaholic said:

I'd use carb & choke cleaner. Starting fluid (ether) doesn't need compression to fire off.. been there done that.. plus starting fluid aggressively scrubs away lubrication..  It'd only prove you have spark enough to light it off , and it don't take much... 

Agreed if you were trying to run the engine on ether. But if you are only momentarily proving a fuel problem and not a spark, no harm will come in that short of a time. Just my opinion.

[Charrie 22]

Oh yes, I forgot reading about the ACR, thanks. 

Was planning on taking the head off todo a cleaning and inspection but was hoping to get it to run first if possible.  When I do remove the cylinder head, should I also hand lap the valves to clean the seats up a little? 

 

Yes, all new fuel lines and filter. 

Yes, pretty sure that the carb will need rebuilt. The choke cable seems to be stuck and i believe it's at the carb, not the cable.  From what I have read, it should have a Carter #30 on it.  I picked up a kohler float kit the other day that i think fits this carb. All it has is the bowl gasket, float, and needle valve. Not sure if that will be enough though. Kohler # 25-757-03-S 

 

As to fuel pump, It still has the original metal pump. I picked up 2 rebuild kits that I believe fit this pump but I have no idea what all of the parts are for. Hopefully I can find some info on rebuilding the pump. #230675

 

Po\O said that he couldn't get the engine to start. Yesterday when attempting to check compression, I couldn't get the starter to engage and used a screwdriver to jump out the solenoid. I need to find a wiring diagram for this tractor. 1985 would have been owned by Wheel Horse, not Toro,  I believe. The diagrams that I have found are Toro and have the Magnum or twin engines. 

 

I thinking this system uses direct battery voltage from the ignition switch to the coil? Points ground the negative side of the coil causing spark?

Does anyone know if this tractor uses a voltage regulator or an electronic rectifier? I haven't found either yet. But neither of those should affect the starting? Just the battery charging?

 

Thanks

Charrie

 

EDIT

I just found this file here on the forum

Kohler K341S-71371 with battery ignition and 3 amp unregulated charging system

Lights work off AC current from a second flywheel stator only when the engine is running

 

1985 416-8 model 31-16K801

 

 

 

 

Edited Sunday at 07:11 PM by Charrie

[sqrlgtr 4,033]

7 hours ago, Charrie said:

As to fuel pump, It still has the original metal pump. I picked up 2 rebuild kits that I believe fit this pump but I have no idea what all of the parts are for. Hopefully I can find some info on rebuilding the pump.

I have rebuilt 4 of the original fuel pumps and they were all different on the inside but 3 of them looked alike on the outside. You just about have to take them apart to tell which one you have but they were all pretty straight forward to rebuild and they have been doing great ever since. I did have to go back through one of them because it seeped fuel between the pump body were it went together but a little more work on flattening of the two halves of pump body took care of it. I recommend Antique Auto Parts | Weymouth, MA | 781-335-8860 for fuel pump kits not the cheapest but have been the best in my opinion, and have always helped me if/when I had ????'s.

[Charrie 22]

Thanks Sqrlgtr 

Both of my pump rebuild kits are Kohler. If the kits don't fit then I do have a Kohler composite/plastic replacement pump I can use but was trying to save it if possible. 

Does Antique Auto Parts sell other parts we need for these tractors? 

 

How many safety switches are on this tractor and are they NO or NC? When turning the ignition switch to on position, the voltage meter moved but the starter solenoid would not engage the starter.  There is a wire but spliced together near the PTO lever but i can't see the switch. The wiring diagram shows a seat switch. isn't there usually a brake or clutch switch? I don't see them on the diagram.

 

Thanks

Charrie

[Gasaholic 394]

17 hours ago, Charrie said:

Oh yes, I forgot reading about the ACR, thanks. 

Was planning on taking the head off todo a cleaning and inspection but was hoping to get it to run first if possible.  When I do remove the cylinder head, should I also hand lap the valves to clean the seats up a little? 

 

Yes, all new fuel lines and filter. 

Yes, pretty sure that the carb will need rebuilt. The choke cable seems to be stuck and i believe it's at the carb, not the cable.  From what I have read, it should have a Carter #30 on it.  I picked up a kohler float kit the other day that i think fits this carb. All it has is the bowl gasket, float, and needle valve. Not sure if that will be enough though. Kohler # 25-757-03-S 

 

As to fuel pump, It still has the original metal pump. I picked up 2 rebuild kits that I believe fit this pump but I have no idea what all of the parts are for. Hopefully I can find some info on rebuilding the pump. #230675

 

Po\O said that he couldn't get the engine to start. Yesterday when attempting to check compression, I couldn't get the starter to engage and used a screwdriver to jump out the solenoid. I need to find a wiring diagram for this tractor. 1985 would have been owned by Wheel Horse, not Toro,  I believe. The diagrams that I have found are Toro and have the Magnum or twin engines. 

 

I thinking this system uses direct battery voltage from the ignition switch to the coil? Points ground the negative side of the coil causing spark?

First thing I would do before pulling head is to make sure it is generating a good spark - so yes points close allowing voltage to flow through coil (should be battery voltage at coil + at all times)  , when points open that interrupts the voltage flow and collapses the magnetic field through primary winding of coil, it has to go somewhere so it goes into the secondary winding and produces the spark. Full voltage should be enough to generate a bright blue spark at the plug (and if it can jump a 1/4 inch gap , the spark should be enough to fire under compression)  If you can get a spark then throw in a little bit of gas (teaspoon) into spark plug hole and see if it will fire - if it does you know you have enough compression and spark to at least start.  So I'd start by verifying spark before pulling head.  if you don't have spark it ain't gonna fire ether (starting fluid) either.. so that'd be the first thing to fix.   Then I'd break down all your other issues into sequence of what's most important (spark, compression, fuel, then worry about charging, fuel delivery and wiring) 

17 hours ago, Charrie said:

Does anyone know if this tractor uses a voltage regulator or an electronic rectifier? I haven't found either yet. But neither of those should affect the starting? Just the battery charging?

 

Thanks

Charrie

 

EDIT

I just found this file here on the forum

Kohler K341S-71371 with battery ignition and 3 amp unregulated charging system

Lights work off AC current from a second flywheel stator only when the engine is running

 

1985 416-8 model 31-16K801

 

 

 

 

 

Your pictured fuel pump kit should probably work for 99% of the kohler fuel pumps out there    The one-piece valves and round gaskets go to one type of valve body and the one piece gasket, 2 disks and 2 little springs go to the other type.. The one piece valves are also used in early plastic bodied fuel pumps as well.   But first things first, make sure you have spark, then deal with compression issues (if such an issue exists)  , then figure out carburetion (dont need fuel pump if you can rig up a gravity fed drip to the carburetor)  and once those are solved, you should be able to get the engine to run. With that out of the way all the rest is just "support systems" to dial in. 

 

Lastly , for voltage regulator , look for a wrapped 2-wire harness coming from under the engine's closure plate (flywheel side) and likely routed under the starter, follow it to a connector body and you'll likely find where those wires terminates which will be a voltage regulator (for a regulated system) or solenoid or key switch (for unregulated system) 

[oliver2-44 11,759]

When you disassemble the fuel pump, some have independent small valve disc and tiny springs under the valve aluminum keeper. Be ready they jump out or be stuck in place

[Charrie 22]

Thanks all.

 Will proceed in the order Gasaholic recommended and then follow Sqrlgtr recommendation to remove the head. Interested to see if its knocking and banging or sewing machine smooth. 

 

Oliver2-44 , I saw those 2 small springs in the kit. I have on old 10gal fish tank that is great for taking things like this apart in. at least there is a good chance to catch anything that might spring out. I put a piece of cardboard over half of the top to block some of it. 

 

I picked up a box labeled miscellaneous carburetor parts at the hardware store that's closing and the guy gave it to me. Inside was some loose parts like needle valves and ect from kits that had been opened It was all Kohler parts. I managed to piece together what I believe to be a carter #30 partial rebuild kit along with a new float kit. According to the part numbers on the packages, they should work. There was also a complete Kohler kit for a walbro 25-757-11-s. From everything I have read, my carb should be a Carter #30.

Maybe one of you guys could look and see what you  think? Also there are 3 different I think (main jets)? 2 are the same while one is different and I see no numbers on them. The different one is smaller than the other 2 and has a tapered tip on it. I also found a package that was mostly intact and had the smaller jet in it. That package part number is 2575701 and google search says it fits a carter #30.   

  The float kit #2575703s also is supposed to fit a Carter #30. 

 

I know the carb parts are getting ahead as the carb may not even be any good inside but the box of parts was free. 

 

Also there were several loose gaskets and i believe they may also fit. Perhaps one of you all might know.  

 

Thanks

Charrie

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 07:37 AM by Charrie

[Charrie 22]

I am trying to understand the wiring diagram so I can test to see if I am getting spark. Right now when turning the key to the start position, nothing happens.

The diagram shows a rectifier I am not sure that my 1985 has a rectifier,  believe it is unregulated. I do have a Kohler 15amp 3 blade regulator but my understanding from recent reading, one would have to change the stator and do some rewiring. If it works fine like it is then why change it?

 

But here is how I interpret the diagram.  One thing that I do not understand is how the seat switch works. Why does it go to the A (Accessory) terminal on the ignition switch? How would not having power on that terminal keep one from starting the engine or kill the engine if you get off the seat?

 

Also i found the seat and PTO switch wires to be spliced together bypassing the switches. I have no clue about the pedal switch yet.

 

 

1- The PURPLE wire goes from the S (start) terminal  on the ignition switch to the S terminal on the solenoid. There is a pedal interlock switch in that circuit requiring the pedal to be pressed to close the switch. 

 

2- The YELLOW wire runs from the I (ignition) terminal from the ignition switch to the positive terminal on the ignition coil. The negative side of the ignition coil is grounded through the breaker points and condenser.and when the breaker points are open, a spark is created at the spark plug. 

 

3- So, how does the ignition switch receive its 12v power to power the I and S terminals? From the B (battery) terminal on the ignition switch right? 

From the positive on the battery a RED wire goes to the starter solenoid B terminal. A second RED wire goes from the Starter solenoid B terminal  to a 15amp fuse where the RED wire splits  and one side stays RED while the other becomes ORANGE.  The RED terminates and turns into 2 WHITE wires. One WHITE wire going to what appears to be a diode that might come from the stator. The other WHITE goes to the PTO interlock switch.

From the PTO interlock switch, the WHITE wire now turns to TAN and connects to the B (battery) terminal on the ignition switch. 

The ORANGE wire runs to the seat switch and then to the A (accessory) terminal on the ignition switch. 

 

 

To hotwire, don't I just run a wire with 12 volts to the positive on the ignition coil and then jump out the solenoid to engage the starter? That should bypass everything and i should be able to see a spark on the grounded plug?

 

Thanks

Charrie

 

 

[rmaynard 17,603]

My suggestion is to download the "demystification guide" from the electrical section of our manuals.

Page 423 has the circuitry for your 416-8.

Here is a cut from the manual for your spark circuit.

 

[Handy Don 17,513]

I’d love to meet the folks who put together the demystification guide over a cup of coffee. Simply excellent work.

[oliver2-44 11,759]

2 hours ago, Charrie said:

 

To hotwire, don't I just run a wire with 12 volts to the positive on the ignition coil and then jump out the solenoid to engage the starter? That should bypass everything and i should be able to see a spark on the grounded plug?

 

Thanks

Charrie

That is correct. 
One caution. Don’t leave power to the coil for an extended time when it’s no being cranked,  you can burn it out