856 predator repower questions

[FLtractor 171]

Evening?

 

After watching several videos on old Wheelhorses.. not 856.. being repowered by new predator engines.. wondering which would be best easiest fit? For just mowing and or towing? No snow. 
Harbor freight has these two.. wondering which would be better option and or fitment… 

Also.. if I did install.. I would simply: unbolt and remove old engine.. coil.. points.. starter .. generator.. voltage regulator … gas tank and or pan if desired … 

Drill holes in tractor frame .. Add adapter plate to bolt to frame.. bolt new engine to that.. 

attach choke and throttle to new engine linkages… find a engine to mower and transmission Pulleys? if sizes different? 
Any steps wrong or missing? Overall how difficult would this be to do? 

[adsm08 4,576]

What's wrong with the engine you have? A K181 is going to be far superior to anything you buy at HF.

[FLtractor 171]

10 minutes ago, adsm08 said:

What's wrong with the engine you have? A K181 is going to be far superior to anything you buy at HF.

Well still getting small

issues such as loose ignition in dash secured .. and attempting to figure out why engine wouldn’t start.. would turn over but no hint of combustion .. MIGHT be a bad condenser? Since has spark but might not be enough.. also starter generator light stays on on dash when tractor did run drive ect. 

Also just wondering if that’s how it would work to repower a 856. Seems simpler than replacing bunch of parts. If I did eventually replace found a tractor without a engine 

Edited 22 hours ago by FLtractor

[adsm08 4,576]

3 minutes ago, FLtractor said:

Well still getting small

issues such as loose ignition in dash secured .. and attempting to figure out why engine wouldn’t start.. would turn over but no hint of combustion .. MIGHT be a bad condenser? Since has spark but might not be enough.. 

Also just wondering if that’s how it would work to repower a 856. Seems simpler than replacing bunch of parts. If I did eventually replace found a tractor without a engine 

 

You don't strike me as the type who is super mechanically inclined. That's OK, not everyone is, but I believe that most people can learn to be. My advice would be to slow down a bit and take the time to learn. Time to learn to how things work, and time to learn to work on what you have before just throwing parts at it. You jump all over the place like an ADHD squirrel. Engine swaps are usually more trouble and work than just diagnosing the issue with the existing system.

 

You say it cranks, and has spark, but no combustion. That is a sign of no fuel, have you tried to bottle feed it and see if it runs? Get a small medicine syringe, draw it full of gas, 5ml usually does the trick, and shoot it right into the throat of the carb while the engine is cranking. If fuel delivery is the issue it will start, but won't stay running.

 

How is the spark? Is it snappy and blue, or is it orange and weak? If the condenser is bad disconnecting it will make it run, but is not a good long-term solution.

[FLtractor 171]

21 minutes ago, adsm08 said:

 

You don't strike me as the type who is super mechanically inclined. That's OK, not everyone is, but I believe that most people can learn to be. My advice would be to slow down a bit and take the time to learn. Time to learn to how things work, and time to learn to work on what you have before just throwing parts at it. You jump all over the place like an ADHD squirrel. Engine swaps are usually more trouble and work than just diagnosing the issue with the existing system.

 

You say it cranks, and has spark, but no combustion. That is a sign of no fuel, have you tried to bottle feed it and see if it runs? Get a small medicine syringe, draw it full of gas, 5ml usually does the trick, and shoot it right into the throat of the carb while the engine is cranking. If fuel delivery is the issue it will start, but won't stay running.

 

How is the spark? Is it snappy and blue, or is it orange and weak? If the condenser is bad disconnecting it will make it run, but is not a good long-term solution.

Your correct.. one of the main reasons I bought this 856 was to learn how it works.. learn the ins outs of why the mechanics and electrical parts work as they.. when you push that thing or pull that why effect happens or doesn’t.. on a machine that doesn’t have modern electronics or safety features to have some hidden reason. Why it’s not working. Just straight forward here’s why easy cheap to fix and maintain once I learn what I’m doing. Don’t want to just throw parts .. wants to diagnose what’s wrong .. fix or replace that and keep using tractor. I’ve learned a lot since ive owned the tractor. But still learning more. 
have not bottle fed it.. did notice the fuel inlet valve for carb is loose and I need to use some fuel leak stop tape.. and gently tighten it so it doesn’t let air in and allows more fuel in .. that could be problem.. 

checked spark with light bulb inline checker only.. but it didn’t appear very bright and was very brief. 
So if I get that fuel issue fixed by doing the above. replace condenser with new genuine condenser I bought. Spray fuel in carb throat.. then it should stay running and drive properly? 

Edited 21 hours ago by FLtractor

[adsm08 4,576]

3 minutes ago, FLtractor said:

checked spark with light bulb inline checker only.. but it didn’t appear very bright and was very brief. 
So if I get that fuel issue fixed by doing the above. replace condenser with new genuine condenser I bought. Spray fuel in carb throat.. then it should stay running and drive properly? 

 

 

There you go, off to the races again. Let's slow down, unload the parts cannon, and take this one step at a time.

 

An air leak around the threads of the carb inlet won't cause it to not run. Liquid fuel pools in the bowl, then air moving over the jet in the throat pulls vapors up. This is called "venturi vacuum", when air moving over an opening at 90 degrees pulls something else along through the hole.

 

In-line spark testers are OK, but I don't like them for real diagnostics. My preferred method is to remove the spark plug from the head, plug it back into the wire, and hold the L-shaped end against the engine while cranking. This lets you get a good look at how the whole system is working together as a unit. Wear heavy linemans gloves, or leather welding gloves while doing that. If you use your bare hands during this step it can be.... "stimulating". A slightly safer, but less complete version of this test is to use a screwdriver in the end of the plug wire held about 1/4 inch from the block. I would not bother replacing the condenser unless you determine there is an ignition issue. If it's not the problem it won't help anything.

 

Shooting fuel right into the carb throat will not allow you to drive off. The fuel only lasts a short time, enough to see if the engine can run, and show you that there is a fuel delivery issue, but most of the time 5ml will be gone before you get in the seat and get in gear, much more will flood it and then it won't run.

[Retired Wrencher 6,733]

10 hours ago, adsm08 said:

 

You don't strike me as the type who is super mechanically inclined. That's OK, not everyone is, but I believe that most people can learn to be. My advice would be to slow down a bit and take the time to learn. Time to learn to how things work, and time to learn to work on what you have before just throwing parts at it. You jump all over the place like an ADHD squirrel. Engine swaps are usually more trouble and work than just diagnosing the issue with the existing system.

 

You say it cranks, and has spark, but no combustion. That is a sign of no fuel, have you tried to bottle feed it and see if it runs? Get a small medicine syringe, draw it full of gas, 5ml usually does the trick, and shoot it right into the throat of the carb while the engine is cranking. If fuel delivery is the issue it will start, but won't stay running.

 

How is the spark? Is it snappy and blue, or is it orange and weak? If the condenser is bad disconnecting it will make it run, but is not a good long-term solution.

FL Tractor this is sound advice here   . Being in a hurry is never a good thing. This is from experience. When you have time start going through all the manuals here that cover your tractor. Do it once and be done with it. Enjoy the ride when it’s done. 

[oliver2-44 11,540]

Good advice from Adams. besides those new engines don't have the cool sound of a starter generator cranking.

[953 nut 66,664]

12 hours ago, FLtractor said:

one of the main reasons I bought this 856 was to learn how it works.. learn the ins outs of why the mechanics and electrical parts work as they.. Just straight forward here’s why easy cheap to fix and maintain once I learn what I’m doing. Don’t want to just throw parts .. wants to diagnose what’s wrong .

That is music to my ears.         All too often we have threads that begin with a list of parts that were replaced that didn't fix the problem. Diagnosing the problem is the fist step toward success. @adsm08 has given you some sound advice and once you slow down and do your work in a methodical manner you will amaze yourself. Doing the job right the first time will keep you from having to do it over and over and over. Here are a couple of steps you should begin with.

Clean and tighten the entire fuel system to ensure the gas is being delivered to the carburetor, old rubber fuel lines should be replaced.

Clean the contacts on your ignition points by rubbing a brown paper bag or dollar bill between them while the points are closed.

[Sparky-(Admin) 25,587]

4 hours ago, oliver2-44 said:

besides those new engines don't have the cool sound of a starter generator cranking.

 I couldn’t agree more! The sound of a start gen Kohler 8 turning over right before it fires is sweet! 

[kpinnc 18,480]

16 hours ago, adsm08 said:

can be.... "stimulating"

 

Yeah, that's all. Just a tingle. 

 

I'm in agreement with where this thread is headed: bring that K181 up to working standard and keep it. It will run another 30 years if you maintain it. 

[Docwheelhorse 2,952]

So... I'm just going to put this out here. If and only IF the K181 is hopeless... (it doesn't sound that way) it sounds like you have to go thru wiring, verify voltage regulator and generator (dash light issue) and then make sure you have a solid ignition and fuel system and you should be fine...

 

Theres this engine which is basically a HF 212 / 224 but with electric start and a modest 2 or 3 amp charging system. It would be plenty of motor for even plowing and would allow LED lighting too

 

https://www.gopowersports.com/212cc-electric-start-engine-7-hp-3-4-horizontal-shaft-gasoline-engine-for-go-karts-and-mini-bikes/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=23613239995&adgroupid=&adid=&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=23603092203&gbraid=0AAAAAD8hpWIbkon6WYIcaILLNT1ZDsY2D&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI2tO35tyOlQMVzy7UAR3FBxFbEAQYASABEgK4zvD_BwE

[FLtractor 171]

4 minutes ago, Docwheelhorse said:

So... I'm just going to put this out here. If and only IF the K181 is hopeless... (it doesn't sound that way) it sounds like you have to go thru wiring, verify voltage regulator and generator (dash light issue) and then make sure you have a solid ignition and fuel system and you should be fine...

 

Theres this engine which is basically a HF 212 / 224 but with electric start and a modest 2 or 3 amp charging system. It would be plenty of motor for even plowing and would allow LED lighting too

 

https://www.gopowersports.com/212cc-electric-start-engine-7-hp-3-4-horizontal-shaft-gasoline-engine-for-go-karts-and-mini-bikes/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=23613239995&adgroupid=&adid=&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=23603092203&gbraid=0AAAAAD8hpWIbkon6WYIcaILLNT1ZDsY2D&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI2tO35tyOlQMVzy7UAR3FBxFbEAQYASABEgK4zvD_BwE

How do I verify the gen starter working properly and the dash light ? 
Thank you for the engine link

[FLtractor 171]

4 hours ago, 953 nut said:

That is music to my ears.         All too often we have threads that begin with a list of parts that were replaced that didn't fix the problem. Diagnosing the problem is the fist step toward success. @adsm08 has given you some sound advice and once you slow down and do your work in a methodical manner you will amaze yourself. Doing the job right the first time will keep you from having to do it over and over and over. Here are a couple of steps you should begin with.

Clean and tighten the entire fuel system to ensure the gas is being delivered to the carburetor, old rubber fuel lines should be replaced.

Clean the contacts on your ignition points by rubbing a brown paper bag or dollar bill between them while the points are closed.

Have already replaced all

old fuel lines.. just need to add some fuel hose clamps.. check new electric fuel pump and possibly elevate fuel tank to allow more gravity fuel to electric fuel pump for tank. Have not looked at points since having Tractor. Will have to do so. 

[FLtractor 171]

7 hours ago, Retired Wrencher said:

FL Tractor this is sound advice here   . Being in a hurry is never a good thing. This is from experience. When you have time start going through all the manuals here that cover your tractor. Do it once and be done with it. Enjoy the ride when it’s done. 

Have to find the 856 manuals on this forum again and go over them.

[Handy Don 16,758]

it certainly can be intimidating (frustrating, aggravating, enraging, disappointing) at first--not having a clear idea of what causes what and where to start when it just doesn’t work.

Slowing down and proceeding more deliberately means choosing a symptom, getting info on causes, and eliminating causes one by one. You will NOT have joy right away but you CAN win in the end.

 

Now, for the really bad news...everyone here could share multiple stories of some problem that stumped them and made them feel foolish despite having quite a bit of knowledge.  I once spent an hour trying to sort out a "starts, runs for a minute, quits, leave it for a few minutes, repeat" problem. Finally realized that fuel petcock was not quite fully closed--open just enough for fuel to start but then it starved. If it had not started at all I’d have checked fuel supply immediately, but...

 

You can look forward to your making your own stories! 🫨

 

test

[pfrederi 20,677]

1 hour ago, FLtractor said:

Have to find the 856 manuals on this forum again and go over them.

 

 

 

[FLtractor 171]

3 hours ago, Handy Don said:

it certainly can be intimidating (frustrating, aggravating, enraging, disappointing) at first--not having a clear idea of what causes what and where to start when it just doesn’t work.

Slowing down and proceeding more deliberately means choosing a symptom, getting info on causes, and eliminating causes one by one. You will NOT have joy right away but you CAN win in the end.

 

Now, for the really bad news...everyone here could share multiple stories of some problem that stumped them and made them feel foolish despite having quite a bit of knowledge.  I once spent an hour trying to sort out a "starts, runs for a minute, quits, leave it for a few minutes, repeat" problem. Finally realized that fuel petcock was not quite fully closed--open just enough for fuel to start but then it starved. If it had not started at all I’d have checked fuel supply immediately, but...

 

You can look forward to your making your own stories! 🫨

 

test

Good points. I intend to have it be motivation to learn and have a productive machine I use for years that I know how it operates feeling good that I did most of the work 

[FLtractor 171]

2 hours ago, pfrederi said:

 

 

 

Thank you very much 

[squonk 46,891]

7 hours ago, Sparky said:

 I couldn’t agree more! The sound of a start gen Kohler 8 turning over right before it fires is sweet! 

What if it starts on the first half revolution?