856 predator repower questions

[FLtractor 171]

Evening?

 

After watching several videos on old Wheelhorses.. not 856.. being repowered by new predator engines.. wondering which would be best easiest fit? For just mowing and or towing? No snow. 
Harbor freight has these two.. wondering which would be better option and or fitment… 

Also.. if I did install.. I would simply: unbolt and remove old engine.. coil.. points.. starter .. generator.. voltage regulator … gas tank and or pan if desired … 

Drill holes in tractor frame .. Add adapter plate to bolt to frame.. bolt new engine to that.. 

attach choke and throttle to new engine linkages… find a engine to mower and transmission Pulleys? if sizes different? 
Any steps wrong or missing? Overall how difficult would this be to do? 

[adsm08 4,575]

What's wrong with the engine you have? A K181 is going to be far superior to anything you buy at HF.

[FLtractor 171]

10 minutes ago, adsm08 said:

What's wrong with the engine you have? A K181 is going to be far superior to anything you buy at HF.

Well still getting small

issues such as loose ignition in dash secured .. and attempting to figure out why engine wouldn’t start.. would turn over but no hint of combustion .. MIGHT be a bad condenser? Since has spark but might not be enough.. also starter generator light stays on on dash when tractor did run drive ect. 

Also just wondering if that’s how it would work to repower a 856. Seems simpler than replacing bunch of parts. If I did eventually replace found a tractor without a engine 

Edited 17 hours ago by FLtractor

[adsm08 4,575]

3 minutes ago, FLtractor said:

Well still getting small

issues such as loose ignition in dash secured .. and attempting to figure out why engine wouldn’t start.. would turn over but no hint of combustion .. MIGHT be a bad condenser? Since has spark but might not be enough.. 

Also just wondering if that’s how it would work to repower a 856. Seems simpler than replacing bunch of parts. If I did eventually replace found a tractor without a engine 

 

You don't strike me as the type who is super mechanically inclined. That's OK, not everyone is, but I believe that most people can learn to be. My advice would be to slow down a bit and take the time to learn. Time to learn to how things work, and time to learn to work on what you have before just throwing parts at it. You jump all over the place like an ADHD squirrel. Engine swaps are usually more trouble and work than just diagnosing the issue with the existing system.

 

You say it cranks, and has spark, but no combustion. That is a sign of no fuel, have you tried to bottle feed it and see if it runs? Get a small medicine syringe, draw it full of gas, 5ml usually does the trick, and shoot it right into the throat of the carb while the engine is cranking. If fuel delivery is the issue it will start, but won't stay running.

 

How is the spark? Is it snappy and blue, or is it orange and weak? If the condenser is bad disconnecting it will make it run, but is not a good long-term solution.

[FLtractor 171]

21 minutes ago, adsm08 said:

 

You don't strike me as the type who is super mechanically inclined. That's OK, not everyone is, but I believe that most people can learn to be. My advice would be to slow down a bit and take the time to learn. Time to learn to how things work, and time to learn to work on what you have before just throwing parts at it. You jump all over the place like an ADHD squirrel. Engine swaps are usually more trouble and work than just diagnosing the issue with the existing system.

 

You say it cranks, and has spark, but no combustion. That is a sign of no fuel, have you tried to bottle feed it and see if it runs? Get a small medicine syringe, draw it full of gas, 5ml usually does the trick, and shoot it right into the throat of the carb while the engine is cranking. If fuel delivery is the issue it will start, but won't stay running.

 

How is the spark? Is it snappy and blue, or is it orange and weak? If the condenser is bad disconnecting it will make it run, but is not a good long-term solution.

Your correct.. one of the main reasons I bought this 856 was to learn how it works.. learn the ins outs of why the mechanics and electrical parts work as they.. when you push that thing or pull that why effect happens or doesn’t.. on a machine that doesn’t have modern electronics or safety features to have some hidden reason. Why it’s not working. Just straight forward here’s why easy cheap to fix and maintain once I learn what I’m doing. Don’t want to just throw parts .. wants to diagnose what’s wrong .. fix or replace that and keep using tractor. I’ve learned a lot since ive owned the tractor. But still learning more. 
have not bottle fed it.. did notice the fuel inlet valve for carb is loose and I need to use some fuel leak stop tape.. and gently tighten it so it doesn’t let air in and allows more fuel in .. that could be problem.. 

checked spark with light bulb inline checker only.. but it didn’t appear very bright and was very brief. 
So if I get that fuel issue fixed by doing the above. replace condenser with new genuine condenser I bought. Spray fuel in carb throat.. then it should stay running and drive properly? 

Edited 16 hours ago by FLtractor

[adsm08 4,575]

3 minutes ago, FLtractor said:

checked spark with light bulb inline checker only.. but it didn’t appear very bright and was very brief. 
So if I get that fuel issue fixed by doing the above. replace condenser with new genuine condenser I bought. Spray fuel in carb throat.. then it should stay running and drive properly? 

 

 

There you go, off to the races again. Let's slow down, unload the parts cannon, and take this one step at a time.

 

An air leak around the threads of the carb inlet won't cause it to not run. Liquid fuel pools in the bowl, then air moving over the jet in the throat pulls vapors up. This is called "venturi vacuum", when air moving over an opening at 90 degrees pulls something else along through the hole.

 

In-line spark testers are OK, but I don't like them for real diagnostics. My preferred method is to remove the spark plug from the head, plug it back into the wire, and hold the L-shaped end against the engine while cranking. This lets you get a good look at how the whole system is working together as a unit. Wear heavy linemans gloves, or leather welding gloves while doing that. If you use your bare hands during this step it can be.... "stimulating". A slightly safer, but less complete version of this test is to use a screwdriver in the end of the plug wire held about 1/4 inch from the block. I would not bother replacing the condenser unless you determine there is an ignition issue. If it's not the problem it won't help anything.

 

Shooting fuel right into the carb throat will not allow you to drive off. The fuel only lasts a short time, enough to see if the engine can run, and show you that there is a fuel delivery issue, but most of the time 5ml will be gone before you get in the seat and get in gear, much more will flood it and then it won't run.

[Retired Wrencher 6,732]

10 hours ago, adsm08 said:

 

You don't strike me as the type who is super mechanically inclined. That's OK, not everyone is, but I believe that most people can learn to be. My advice would be to slow down a bit and take the time to learn. Time to learn to how things work, and time to learn to work on what you have before just throwing parts at it. You jump all over the place like an ADHD squirrel. Engine swaps are usually more trouble and work than just diagnosing the issue with the existing system.

 

You say it cranks, and has spark, but no combustion. That is a sign of no fuel, have you tried to bottle feed it and see if it runs? Get a small medicine syringe, draw it full of gas, 5ml usually does the trick, and shoot it right into the throat of the carb while the engine is cranking. If fuel delivery is the issue it will start, but won't stay running.

 

How is the spark? Is it snappy and blue, or is it orange and weak? If the condenser is bad disconnecting it will make it run, but is not a good long-term solution.

FL Tractor this is sound advice here   . Being in a hurry is never a good thing. This is from experience. When you have time start going through all the manuals here that cover your tractor. Do it once and be done with it. Enjoy the ride when it’s done. 

[oliver2-44 11,539]

Good advice from Adams. besides those new engines don't have the cool sound of a starter generator cranking.

[953 nut 66,658]

12 hours ago, FLtractor said:

one of the main reasons I bought this 856 was to learn how it works.. learn the ins outs of why the mechanics and electrical parts work as they.. Just straight forward here’s why easy cheap to fix and maintain once I learn what I’m doing. Don’t want to just throw parts .. wants to diagnose what’s wrong .

That is music to my ears.         All too often we have threads that begin with a list of parts that were replaced that didn't fix the problem. Diagnosing the problem is the fist step toward success. @adsm08 has given you some sound advice and once you slow down and do your work in a methodical manner you will amaze yourself. Doing the job right the first time will keep you from having to do it over and over and over. Here are a couple of steps you should begin with.

Clean and tighten the entire fuel system to ensure the gas is being delivered to the carburetor, old rubber fuel lines should be replaced.

Clean the contacts on your ignition points by rubbing a brown paper bag or dollar bill between them while the points are closed.

[Sparky-(Admin) 25,584]

4 hours ago, oliver2-44 said:

besides those new engines don't have the cool sound of a starter generator cranking.

 I couldn’t agree more! The sound of a start gen Kohler 8 turning over right before it fires is sweet! 

[kpinnc 18,477]

16 hours ago, adsm08 said:

can be.... "stimulating"

 

Yeah, that's all. Just a tingle. 

 

I'm in agreement with where this thread is headed: bring that K181 up to working standard and keep it. It will run another 30 years if you maintain it.