Code Violation

[Racinbob 12,978]

I'm getting set to install a whole house generator and was checking things out yesterday. Even though I replaced the panel shortly after we moved in I never had a reason to check into how the feeder from the meter base made the trip. Now I needed to know. Looking at the 2" PVC feeding the panel something looked a bit odd because I assumed it went outside. Nope. It went up the wall and into the back of the meter base. Can't do that in a 3.5" wall cavity. I started thinking that there might be a LB in the wall. The meter base was mounted right at the end on one of the master bedroom closets so I decided I needed an access panel. I had to know. A few measurements and some drywall saw work and there it was. Oddly the wall stud measures 6.75" so they must have ripped down a 2x8 just for that small section of wall at the end of the closet. Clearly some thought was put into a code violation. 

 

 

I have an 8" x 12" access panel on the way to cover the hole. Now that I'm making this code compliant it will soon no longer be needed. 

[ri702bill 12,148]

Bob - good thing you did not nick the unsecured Romex on the right while cutting to find the Pulling Elbow...

 

[squonk 46,620]

We have a bunch of houses in the village that were built in the 50's for the local soldiers. Sampson Naval Base, Air Base and the Seneca Army Depot just a few miles away. They were designed as "Temporary" homes. A single little furnace in a closet, fiberboard sewer lines, all kinds of goodies. Well they are still there. My brother in law bought 2 of them. One to rent and 1 for his stepdaughter. I put electrical services in both of them. I could write a book about what I found. All of the original outlets fell apart when you removed the wall plate!!! 

 

His son in law goes nuts with Christmas lights. They called me Christmas Eve one year as half of the House went dark. My brother in law had half of the outlets out of the walls when I got there.  Couldn't find a tripped breaker.  It had rained hard and I noticed an extension cord on the roof half plugged in. Water got on it and shorted out the cord. I followed it to a sub panel in the garage and found the tripped breaker. I remind them every year to go easy on the spaghetti mess but to no avail! 

Edited 17 hours ago by squonk

[oldlineman 1,718]

I too have seen many questionable wiring  jobs. I guess it goes under the saying,everything is good till it ain't, and when it ain't thing can go very bad in a hurry.

[ri702bill 12,148]

3 hours ago, Racinbob said:

Clearly some thought was put into a code violation. 

Mayhaps it was code compliant back then!

Remember - it's not a violation until it is found....

[Racinbob 12,978]

2 hours ago, ri702bill said:

Bob - good thing you did not nick the unsecured Romex on the right while cutting to find the Pulling Elbow...

 

Not a problem. I started with a small hand size hole to verify I was in the right spot and what could be in the way then I was holding those wires aside as I cut the access panel size. Not my first rodeo. 

 

1 hour ago, oldlineman said:

I too have seen many questionable wiring  jobs. I guess it goes under the saying,everything is good till it ain't, and when it ain't thing can go very bad in a hurry.

 

I was concerned about the possible safety issue when I didn't know what was in the wall. Turns out it wasn't an issue but still a code violation. I'm sure the next stud void to the right has ALL the house wires. The guy ran all the branch circuits from the basement panel to the attic. Then he set a box over each room and ran separate wires to each device in that room. Virtually all the shallow blue plastic 4x4's were overfilled and the plastic covers were bulging. I basically lived in the attic as I changed everything to deep 4-11/16" boxes and redid every joint. Opened up and checked every switch and recep in the house too. 

[Racinbob 12,978]

3 minutes ago, ri702bill said:

Mayhaps it was code compliant back then!

Remember - it's not a violation until it is found....

 

 Nah. I've been in the trade since the 70's and it's never been legal. The house was built in the late 90's. 

The problem here in Starke county is they either don't know or don't care. Does it work? Yes. OK, it's passed.

[JoeM 9,956]

I suppose if it were left open and the run was under the max length required it would be okay.  Here we have to be under three feet max to the breaker when it enters the house.

Maybe that got inspected before the wall covering was installed?

At least your going to be okay, sounds like a redo for the generator switch anyway, and a new inspection.

 

 

[squonk 46,620]

I put a service in another rental house for my B-i L. I installed Arc-fault breakers for his down stairs outlets. (My wife had been in a rocking chair once and the rocker hit a lamp cord and it about blew a hole in the wall so I put those in all wall outlets now unless it needs to be GFI) Anyway I'm in the basement doing other stuff and his wife rented an old floor sander. That thing kept tripping that arc fault so I knew it was working

[Racinbob 12,978]

30 minutes ago, JoeM said:

I suppose if it were left open and the run was under the max length required it would be okay.  Here we have to be under three feet max to the breaker when it enters the house.

Maybe that got inspected before the wall covering was installed?

At least your going to be okay, sounds like a redo for the generator switch anyway, and a new inspection.

 

The distance is generally up to the local codes. Most places I'm seen have been 10'-15' max. Yours being 3' means you pretty much need to enter the house right at the panel. I seriously doubt this was inspected. If the rough it was inspected I would think it would be obvious that was being covered. It's possible that they had planned on an access panel and forgot. 

I'm betting REMC (power company) will be the only inspection. They are only going to make sure I don't run the panel feed from the transfer switch back into the meter base. The LB and 2" pvc will have to be abandoned. I'll just make sure it closed off good. 

 

12 minutes ago, squonk said:

I put a service in another rental house for my B-i L. I installed Arc-fault breakers for his down stairs outlets. (My wife had been in a rocking chair once and the rocker hit a lamp cord and it about blew a hole in the wall so I put those in all wall outlets now unless it needs to be GFI) Anyway I'm in the basement doing other stuff and his wife rented an old floor sander. That thing kept tripping that arc fault so I knew it was working

 

Which is a good argument for why I always use 15 amp breakers on all branch circuits that don't need 20 even though it wired with 12 ga. How big is that cord on the lamp, TV, etc.? 

[JoeM 9,956]

1 hour ago, Racinbob said:

Which is a good argument for why I always use 15 amp

Yep, at work we had a multi-amp meter, we used it to check breakers and over-load relays for calibration. One day we we messed around and hooked up some 20 amp breakers and ran them up to 50% (30 amps) over current. It was minutes not seconds until we got a trip. surprising to say the least. There is a pretty good curve on those things. 

 

For those that don't know, a high restive arc is what causes fires.  Not enough current is drawn to trip the breaker and lets just say a call to 911 is coming. Those breakers listen for arcing, because people like running flimsy extension cords and even like putting them under carpets! That is why some sweepers trip those breakers, the brushes arc and the beaker picks it up. I like putting a non arc fault in the hallway for this reason. Never want to stop the misses from get r done. 

A reduced breaker size is a good idea, I've done a couple remodels and 14 ga is what I used in bed rooms and all lighting.

 

I do notice now new homes have a main breaker mounted right below the meter. Nice for working in a plan and or a generator install. 

 

 

[squonk 46,620]

My old house still has cloth wiring in the lighting circuits and I ain't tearing things apart to change it, Even have those old push button switches. Got arc fault's on that too.

[oliver2-44 11,488]

I sold a house in 1994 that had a GFCI outlet outside on the patio next to the garage door. 

The new owner rented from me for a couple of weeks as their previous house sale closed, then we closed.

They called me that the plug on the patio kept tripping and they had a electrician replace the plug and breaker and wanted me to pay for it.

I went over after the fact, to find that had a deep freeze sitting on the patio plugged in where the GFCI had been, so it no surprise the GFCI tripped.

Amazingly the licensed electrician (their friend)  removed the GFCI and installed a regular outlet and installed a 20 amp breaker in place of the 15 amp breaker on #14 wire. 

I pointed out the error, but they brought the bill to closing and made a fuss. I paid it but made them sign a letter that I was not responsible for the change they had requested to be made. 

Really had to question that electricians knowledge.

[Racinbob 12,978]

Yet another project I'm in to this spring is my sisters garage. Their house was built in the early 70's. My dad (another life long electrician) wired it so I knew it was done right. Since then they added a garage with a workshop. My dad passed over 20 years ago and I was living in Florida we had no part in that wiring. Since being back up here I've been in their garage many times and cringed every time. Fluorescent fixtures crudely hung with tie wire. Not only are fluorescents a bad idea in northern Indiana (try getting them to work in the winter) but all the wiring was extension cords and what romex I could see was shoddy. After fixing a couple things inside the house (a couple of 50 year old switches were acting up) I told them I wanted to clean up the garage. About a week ago I did the demo and made a material list. Over a dozen extension cords with multiple cube taps slung through the trusses. I found other potentially serious screwups as well. I didn't say much until I pulled the garage panel cover. A 100 amp main breaker panel, a Homeline, not QO but that was OK. BUT, the feeder was #14. I said a few things but figured it was probably still safe as the breaker in the house panel was protecting it. I went inside. A two pole 50 amp breaker was feeding the #14 romex feeling the garage.  I could no longer keep my mouth shut. I asked them who wired this and couldn't get a real answer so I stopped pushing. Now just try to explain to two people well into their 80's and electrically ignorant why this is dangerous when it's worked fine for almost 30 years. To make the story shorter I'm just going to say I'm not running a new feeder. It would require trenching and they no longer use the workshop out there. They need lights and the door openers to work. I haven't finished it yet but they are getting a two pole 15 in the house panel, four keyless lamp holders with led bulbs and receptacles for the openers. That's all they need and want at this point. The extension cords showed their age and were trashed as well as the fluorescent fixtures. Their garage will work as they need it, it will be properly protected. They will also get a stern warning about who touches wiring in the future. 

[squonk 46,620]

My favorite:

 

I got called to a school. Steam cooker would quit mid cycle randomly. I get there and of course it's working and won't quit. I replace the normal wear and tear items like flame sensors and igniters. This goes on for a year. Can never get it to act up.   Then they call and want all of the GFI's replaced in the kitchen. Ok they are as old as time itself. We find cloth wiring. 

 

Then one day I'm replacing a fan on their walk in freezer. The kitchen manager shows me this old Bunn coffee pot. She says they get zapped by it once in a while and wants to know if I could fix it. I told her to junk it and go to Wally World and buy a new one.

 

Few month's go by and we're installing a new induction fan motor on one of their boilers. The Facilities Director comes into the room laughing. He says to me they finally found out why that steam cooker keeps quitting! 

 

Turned out there was a lady who came in mid morning and the first thing she does is make coffee. That Bunn coffee pot would trip a GFI. So she would move the pot to another plug. Every once in a while she would trip the GFI that fed the steam cooker. She just never told any body and they would find the GFI's tripped so they thought they were all going bad! 

[oldlineman 1,718]

1 hour ago, Racinbob said:

Yet another project I'm in to this spring is my sisters garage. Their house was built in the early 70's. My dad (another life long electrician) wired it so I knew it was done right. Since then they added a garage with a workshop. My dad passed over 20 years ago and I was living in Florida we had no part in that wiring. Since being back up here I've been in their garage many times and cringed every time. Fluorescent fixtures crudely hung with tie wire. Not only are fluorescents a bad idea in northern Indiana (try getting them to work in the winter) but all the wiring was extension cords and what romex I could see was shoddy. After fixing a couple things inside the house (a couple of 50 year old switches were acting up) I told them I wanted to clean up the garage. About a week ago I did the demo and made a material list. Over a dozen extension cords with multiple cube taps slung through the trusses. I found other potentially serious screwups as well. I didn't say much until I pulled the garage panel cover. A 100 amp main breaker panel, a Homeline, not QO but that was OK. BUT, the feeder was #14. I said a few things but figured it was probably still safe as the breaker in the house panel was protecting it. I went inside. A two pole 50 amp breaker was feeding the #14 romex feeling the garage.  I could no longer keep my mouth shut. I asked them who wired this and couldn't get a real answer so I stopped pushing. Now just try to explain to two people well into their 80's and electrically ignorant why this is dangerous when it's worked fine for almost 30 years. To make the story shorter I'm just going to say I'm not running a new feeder. It would require trenching and they no longer use the workshop out there. They need lights and the door openers to work. I haven't finished it yet but they are getting a two pole 15 in the house panel, four keyless lamp holders with led bulbs and receptacles for the openers. That's all they need and want at this point. The extension cords showed their age and were trashed as well as the fluorescent fixtures. Their garage will work as they need it, it will be properly protected. They will also get a stern warning about who touches wiring in the future. 

Yes it is very hard too explain to very nice people, that do not understand electricity, and the safe use of it why something is very wrong and a safety hazard , when everything is working and has been for some time. They were just very lucky.