265-6/72045 starting issues

[Snelly1985 3]

I'm at about my wits end on this issue I'm struggling to resolve. It all began while mowing my yard, when my PTO deck shut off.  I came to a stop then shut off the switch, then turned it back on, and nothing....at first.  After a few seconds, it kicked off again. Did a repeat of actions and after a delay, it started up again; however, this time when it cut out, the engine started misfiring till it eventually just shut down.  After some googling, it leaned toward either a weak battery, or malfunctioning PTO clutch that was killing the battery almost instantly.  I also saw that if it was the latter situation, that sometimes it can overheat the PTO switch, to the point of being useless. Right or wrong, my next step was to bypass the PTO clutch connection.  This still did not allow the tractor to fire up.  Then, to eliminate some of the other possibilities that were mentioned online, I went ahead and ordered a new oem key switch, solenoid, and PTO switch while I had the battery charging  (even though only a year old and was still about 12.8 volts prior to charging). I installed the new parts one at a time to see if anything made a difference, but to no avail.  Finally, I was able to locate the wiring schematic online and replaced the 3 fuses (even though they weren't blown), and started testing/bypassing the safety switches. The schematic only shows 4 switches in the circuit, plus the PTO switch; however, mine had 2 neutral switches (schematic shows 1) for a total 5 switches & PTO switch. In the end, I managed to create a closed circuit that went to the seat switch, to the brake switch, parking brake switch and both neutral switches with a reading of 12.8 volts at each bypass. I can't remember the name at the moment, but I also replaced small rectangular, aluminum part that had a plug going to it at the same time as the other parts. I don't know what I did at one point in this process, but I did manage to get it to start, but then I couldn't shut off with the key (old ignition switch). I cleaned up the engine ground surface and replaced the connections with new.  I don't know if it's some sort of ground issue, or it has something to do with having those 2 neutral switches instead of 1, or what. Maybe I should take another stab at it by replacing the "kill relay", maybe "switch relay" as well, just to eliminate those possible problems. I'm totally at a loss for things to try at this point; and any advice would be a blessing.  Process of elimination hasn't seemed to bear any fruit yet.

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 12,146]

Welcome to Red Square.

Have you seen the wiring diagrams where each circuit has it's own diagram? Makes diagnosis easier.

Double check the ignition switch with the one in the main diagram. Terminal identities and location are important. Although the tractor has magneto ignition it also uses a battery type of ignition switch to control a kill relay to turn the ignition on and off.

Click on the picture of the tractor in this ink to see the diagram and download the 5-page file.

We may also have pin-out diagrams for the individual switches to show how they should function. Look through them all as they are in a random order in this link.

Also noticed the start and kill relays are the same part so a swap may help with diagnosis.

https://www.wheelhorseforum.com/search/?q=72045&quick=1&type=downloads_file

 

Keep us posted on your thoughts.

 

[Ed Kennell 45,730]

 to the 

[Achto 31,535]

[953 nut 65,190]

I do not own this model but based on other Wheel Horses I suspect that the fuse holders are located near the battery. If one of the fuse holders has become corroded due to fumes from the battery over time it will become a poor conductor of electricity and could be your problem.

[Snelly1985 3]

Wow!  You guys are awesome!  Thanks to all for the contributions; I never thought the responses would show up so quick.

I'll check things out and report back with the findings.

Thanks again.

[SylvanLakeWH 31,061]

[Snelly1985 3]

Well, I'm back again with the same issues.  I just don't know what I'm missing.  I feel like I'm further away than I was when I first started working on it.  I don't hear a click at the solenoid when I turn on the switch. What makes things confusing to me, is that there is no power to the starter motor when the key is off, but as soon as I turn it to the first "on" position(lights), the starter gets full voltage.  The 2nd position retains this voltage, and the "start" position still shows full voltage to the starter.  Personally, I didn't think I should be getting power to the starter until I had the key turned all the way to the start position, so that caught me by surprise.  Based on the schematic, the power completes the loop through the safety switch circuit with full voltage as well with everything jumpered out. All fuses are good as well.  The harness that leaves the engine block shows power back to the underside of the "console" where I can't follow any further without tearing it completely down. At this point, I've replaced both relays, all fuses, ignition switch, 4 solenoids, PTO switch, and the rectifier.  At this point, my only uncertainty comes from the "neutral" safety switch because the schematic shows 1 of them, but I pulled 2 out of it.  Does that  make sense?  Is there something I'm missing there?  My other question is that I don't understand the purpose/functionality of the 2 small terminals on the solenoid.  I never see any "juice" out of either of them.  I saw note online that said a simple test to determine if it was a solenoid issue or a safety issue, was to run a test wire from the battery negative to the small terminal on the same side of the solenoid as the power wire to the starter and try the key.  If it starts, there is a safety switch issue. If it doesn't start, it is likely the solenoid being faulty.  Since it is new, and I put it on and performed the test prior to any other tinkering, I can't imagine it is still a solenoid issue.  Another puzzling find, is that VERY occasionally, when the switch is turned to at least the first on position, I'll sometimes hear a repeating and low volume clicking...almost like I'm hearing the ticking of a clock, but occurs what seems to be 5 seconds or so apart each time.  When I most recently heard it, I immediately tried to crank it over, thinking that there was a shorting connection and that it would attempt to start, but I get absolutely nothing.  Battery remains at 12.8 at all times, even after sitting for a few days.  I love this tractor, but I don't know how much more I can take before I push it off a cliff!☺  Please help, if you can.  Thanks in advance. 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 12,146]

The clicking you hear may be the hour meter running.

The two switches should be the neutral switch and the brake switch - they may be the same part number.

Wondering if you don't have grounding issues. The (-) battery cable should go to the engine block as well a a small gauge wire which grounds the rest of the system. If in doubt add more grounds.

You should never see any voltage on a black wire. If you do it is not grounded or has a poor ground connection. To test hook test light to negative battery post and probe for voltage at the black wire terminals as you apply power to a circuit.

 

You will never get power out of the small solenoid terminals. The solenoid is just a heavy duty relay. When the green wire applies power from the start circuit the magnetic coil is energized as long as the other small terminal black wire is grounded it will close the big contacts joining the (+) battery cable to the starter cable - motor runs.

If you have voltage at the small black solenoid wire in start key position that black wire is not grounded as it should be.

You did download the 5-page wiring diagrams?

Keep the questions coming.