Game Changer Heat & A/C In the Shop

[Handy Don 15,744]

1 hour ago, Blue Chips said:

I think you overlooked something

Nope. Con Ed’s connection/transmission/“fees” are all higher than CMPs on top of the 77% higher basic kilowatt hour rate.

There is also, for many customers, a “time of use” escalation triggered by higher than “normal” demand or lower than “normal” available supply system wide. Typically this is during heat waves in summer but occasionally during cold spells or from storm damage. 

There is, too, a discount available to some customers for managed and/or off-peak consumption, typically in exchange for allowing Con Ed more monitoring and control access to your home or business, e.g. to shut down air conditioning, shut down an industrial process, or activate nighttime vehicle chargers remotely. 

Edited 20 hours ago by Handy Don

[JCM 10,631]

We have had only a few wood stove fires this year where it's been so cold. Putting the new hot water boiler through the test. Will post up some info and pics on that project. Also finishing up the second floor bathroom. Keeping very busy around the house.  Stay warm Bro.

[ebinmaine 77,050]

3 minutes ago, JCM said:

We have had only a few wood stove fires this year where it's been so cold. Putting the new hot water boiler through the test. Will post up some info and pics on that project. Also finishing up the second floor bathroom. Keeping very busy around the house.  Stay warm Bro.

 

The basement dwelling Mama starts a wood stove fire almost everyday.

Upstairs, depends on who's home and how long.

 

[wallfish 19,040]

13 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

There is also, for many customers, a “time of use” escalation triggered by higher than “normal” demand or lower than “normal” available supply system wide. Typically this is during heat waves in summer but occasionally during cold spells or from storm damage.

Just wait until more of those huge AI data centers come along and consume huge amounts of electricity 24 hours a day. Highly doubtful THEY will be footing those entire electric bills themselves as they should, but guessing a big chunk of that will probably fall on all of the customers.

[Handy Don 15,744]

For sure.

And shutting down a two-unit nuclear power plant about 10 miles away with an excellent operating record didn’t quite go to plan. The replacement power has been, for the most part, supplied using more costly gas turbine and oil-fired plants rather than the “renewable and eco-friendly” solar, wind, and hydro as promised (note that “less expensive” was NEVER promised ).

[Bill D 2,584]

4 hours ago, Blue Chips said:

 

I'm looking at getting something similar in the way of a ceiling-mount, direct-vent, sealed-combustion unit to replace the existing electric heater, which puts a big dent in my wallet.

 

 

I was considering something like that, but I think I'm going to go with a ceiling-mount unit, as I really don't have the available wall space for a wall-mount heater.

 

 

I keep my workshop (former 2-car garage) at least 50 degrees all the time and warm it up a little when I'm working in it. I've found that if I let it get too cold and then warm it up, it can create condensation on my equipment, primarily during the cooler parts of the spring and autumn when the interior air is more humid. It's not so much a problem in the winter, as the winter air in the shop tends to be very low relative humidity. I have a dehumidifier in the shop, but it virtually never comes on in the winter.

 

 

The current electric heater in my shop is a 5,000 watt unit (a little over 17K BTU), and it can keep the shop (about 575 square feet) warm when the temps drop below zero, but the power bill  !

 

 

 

We're on CMP as well, and I'd probably use an unprintable expletive to describe the power bill, a good portion of which is attributable to my electric workshop heater. My workshop is in our old two-car garage, which is pretty well insulated...walls, ceiling, and garage doors...and the current 5,000-watt heater keeps it nice and cozy, but it doesn't feel quite as comfortable when I remind myself that my power bill is helping to subsidize Spain's economy...not that I have anything against Spain, but gee whiz.

 

My Dad has that heater in the 7,500 watt model in his 2.5 car garage.   Works great 

[JCM 10,631]

3 hours ago, WHX?? said:

And then have framing studs in the way  ...   

Pic of the outside Plunge? 

The shop siding is 1'' rough sawn vertical/ board & batten  with horizontal 2x4' s. No studs in the way.  @WHX??  I had to make a screen outside to keep insects out. Will get a pic for you.

[Racinbob 12,627]

It was 16° this morning. My garage is pretty well insulated and is just under 1000 sq ft with some extra volume with 10' ceilings. 30k BTU would be considered minimum to heat it up. With us parking the warm vehicles in there is rarely gets down to the freezing mark. At  6:30 this morning it was:

 

 

Some time ago I decided to go the cheap and lazy way and to use a couple of 1500w milkhouse heaters. A little later I added a third. In an hour it was this:

 

 

That's a little over 15k BTU running. That works for me but I will likely still hang a 7.5 or 10KW unit. 

[Blue Chips 644]

3 hours ago, Handy Don said:

Nope. Con Ed’s connection/transmission/“fees” are all higher than CMPs on top of the 77% higher basic kilowatt hour rate.

There is also, for many customers, a “time of use” escalation triggered by higher than “normal” demand or lower than “normal” available supply system wide. Typically this is during heat waves in summer but occasionally during cold spells or from storm damage. 

There is, too, a discount available to some customers for managed and/or off-peak consumption, typically in exchange for allowing Con Ed more monitoring and control access to your home or business, e.g. to shut down air conditioning, shut down an industrial process, or activate nighttime vehicle chargers remotely. 

 

What is your current actual out-of-pocket cost per kWh? (Total of your last electric bill divided by the total kWh usage for that bill?)

 

Do you have other electrical costs, such as annual fees that you have to pay in addition to your monthly bills, or deferred accounting/rate smoothing?

 

Our current (for January) actual cost is $.28 per kWh, which is a simple bill with no deferred accounting or rate smoothing. If you're paying more than that, that's pretty awful.  It's bad enough here.

We've been talking more and more about solar options. I can save a considerable amount of money on a solar setup by doing the installation and wiring myself. I've been doing my own residential wiring for decades (always with any required electrical permits/inspections, of course). Initially, we'd probably be looking at a simple solar system with a synced inverter in an electric company buy-back situation, in which the electric company essentially serves as a storage battery, but more research is needed.

 

 

 

Edited 17 hours ago by Blue Chips

[pfrederi 19,768]

The currently unheated area of my shop (84x30 13 ft ceiling) had a big oil-fired hot air heater hung from the ceiling.  Problem was it would get things fairly warm but only down to about 4-5 feet above the floor.  If you were working on a tractor at ground level it was cold...It finally died and now if i have to do something out there I have a 175,00 BTU kerosene torpedo uint .. gets it warm near the floor but noisy as heck.  Ceiling heat doesn't do well at ground level

[ebinmaine 77,050]

3 hours ago, Blue Chips said:

electric company buy-back situation, in which the electric company essentially serves as a storage battery

 

For the time being - in Maine - that is correct. 

 

[WHX?? 54,460]

7 hours ago, Blue Chips said:

 

If you don't mind, maybe I'll PM you and pick your brain a bit

 

Prefer you did pick what little is left. Like to see a bro go off half a$$ed educated than none at all... 

[adsm08 4,155]

43 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

Ceiling heat doesn't do well at ground level

My parents' house was originally built as a ranch, 1 story, with electric grid heating. In the ceiling.

 

No other heat in the whole house. In PA.

 

Worst winters ever.

Edited 14 hours ago by adsm08

[WHX?? 54,460]

7 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

perfectly good wood stove out there.

Yes i wouldn't have a shop now without a wood stove. Coming sooner rather than later i won't be able to make wood any more. Plus I had to pull the stove out and hide it when the insurance co come around. Many insurance won't cover with a wood stove. Gets worse every year. 

 

7 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

25 to 40 ft of digging 4 ft down and placing the lines. Also, the tank mount area, which would have had to be excavated.

Who told you that Big U??? ... that can't be right. Gas line only needs to be a foot deep. 500 gallon tank needs only be ten foot away from building. There ain't no way excavation needs to be done installing tank and line I don't care where it is. I've set many tanks and now even easier with the new fangled piping methods. 

I gotta believe whoever you talked to was yanking ya.  

[WHX?? 54,460]

7 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

Turns out that the AC & heat combo is a pretty weak heater.

Did you put in a mini split? 

[WHX?? 54,460]

7 hours ago, JCM said:

Putting the new hot water boiler through the test. Will post up some info and pics on that project.

Yah Yah ... please do... you know how that kinda stuff gets me excited ... 

[WHX?? 54,460]

6 hours ago, Racinbob said:

10' ceilings. 30k BTU would be considered minimum to heat it up

Over head doors is what sets the size Bob. Guessing you may have 9' high  doors?  R levels and windows factor in too but doors are the big thing. You would be best off with a 45K gas. 

 

Gotta remember we generally only heat these things to minimal levels and work with a jacket on. 55 - 60 deg. is great for me ... 65 if i'm teaching the recliner a lesson... 

Bet you already did the math that 10kw = 34k btu. That might get you by. One good thing and the ONLY good thing about electric heat is it is 99.9 % efficient. Oh two things ... and cheap to install. Thing #2 is the main reason guys that don't know any better use it. 

 

Be careful with those milk house heaters. 

[ebinmaine 77,050]

32 minutes ago, WHX?? said:

Yes i wouldn't have a shop now without a wood stove. Coming sooner rather than later i won't be able to make wood any more. Plus I had to pull the stove out and hide it when the insurance co come around. Many insurance won't cover with a wood stove. Gets worse every year. 

 

My insurance company - and the law - won't allow solid fuel in a garage. 

My workshop is NOT a garage. 

No vehicle fits in the largest door. 

Loopholes. ....

 

 

 

32 minutes ago, WHX?? said:

Who told you that Big U??? ... that can't be right. Gas line only needs to be a foot deep. 500 gallon tank needs only be ten foot away from building.

 

 

You Low Land people never remember the ground here.  

 

The land layout here is NOT set up for anything above or below ground. 

ANY system of ANY fuel would have to be designed from the ground up. And that ground needs to be MADE. 

 

Remember the mountains??

 

 

 

32 minutes ago, WHX?? said:

 

There ain't no way excavation needs to be done installing tank and line I don't care where it is. I've set many tanks and now even easier with the new fangled piping methods. 

I gotta believe whoever you talked to was yanking ya.  

 

Nope. That's a COMPANY rule here. 

 

I have only two choices. Both said the same.  

Code is 12". 

Preference is 18".

 

The frost line depth is regularly 4 feet or more. 

Things move. 

 

We can't get a tank set on anything just setting on the ground.  

It has to be on a deep set pad. 

 

All that surface area has to be scraped off. 

Several TRUCKLOADS  of new fill brought in. 

Everything created from nothing.  

 

It's just not a simple installation.  

 

 

 

[ebinmaine 77,050]

45 minutes ago, WHX?? said:

Did you put in a mini split? 

 

No. Window unit.  

24K AC & 14K Heat.  

The AC is great but the heater is inadequate.  

 

[WHX?? 54,460]

9 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

Nope. That's a COMPANY rule here. 

That's a crock and I would be call a different company. 

 

10 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

regularly 4 feet or more. 

Oh fer sure but the plastic line they use now moves with it. Not only that new school uses expansion sections which is basically a coil of pipe every so often.   All mine are copper lines hand buried. Yes in sand mind you but still.

I bet I got 100 yards of 3/8 OD copper buried by the time I get to the garage, the gas grill & love shack. All teed off under ground and never a leak. 

 

12 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

We can't get a tank set on anything just setting on the ground.  

It has to be on a deep set pad. 

Another crock. Mine is setting on a 4 inch hand poured concrete pad and never moved a inch on blow sand... well except for that time she ran into it with the big tractor.  Old days we used leveled silo staves under the feet and lotta outfits still do. That tank goes anywhere one is gonna have way bigger problems. 

 

Now Plunge's code  ... yes that needs to be followed ... Unless you recruit the Pullstart and mow after dark... 

51 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

It's just not a simple installation.

 

Beg to differ ... someone is making it difficult. 

[squonk 45,351]

12 hours ago, pfrederi said:

The currently unheated area of my shop (84x30 13 ft ceiling) had a big oil-fired hot air heater hung from the ceiling.  Problem was it would get things fairly warm but only down to about 4-5 feet above the floor.  If you were working on a tractor at ground level it was cold...It finally died and now if i have to do something out there I have a 175,00 BTU kerosene torpedo uint .. gets it warm near the floor but noisy as heck.  Ceiling heat doesn't do well at ground level

You need some Big A$$ ceiling fans! 

 

When I went to work for BOCES Our offices were in this big building in 2nd floor lofts. It was actually a big garage that could hold about 30 trucks. They kept the loader, grounds equipment, bucket truck and our service vans in there. Had 3 NG ceiling heaters. First winter I was there I noticed the heaters ran all the time and our offices were hot but the shop floor was cold all the time. They had a bunch of these big fans in the ceiling. They weren't on. So I asked why don't you turn on the fans ? They responded with,

" They haven't worked in years! " So one day I was at the shop working on some stuff and went investigating. Found the fans breaker off. Turned it on and all the fans come on. Now all the heat made it down to the floor so the heater thermostats would actually turn the heaters on and off.  All of the fans had on off switches on columns. In perfect union fashion someone decided instead of turning off each fan when it got warm outside, they would be lazy just turn off 1 breaker and not tell anyone. and no one else went looking for it! 

Edited 2 hours ago by squonk

[ebinmaine 77,050]

9 hours ago, WHX?? said:

That's a crock and I would be call a different company. 

 

Go back and read what I wrote. I did do that. I have two options. They both gave me the same answer. Nearly verbatim.

 

 

9 hours ago, WHX?? said:

 

Oh fer sure but the plastic line they use now moves with it. Not only that new school uses expansion sections which is basically a coil of pipe every so often.   All mine are copper lines hand buried. Yes in sand mind you but still.

I bet I got 100 yards of 3/8 OD copper buried by the time I get to the garage, the gas grill & love shack. All teed off under ground and never a leak. 

 

Another crock. Mine is setting on a 4 inch hand poured concrete pad and never moved a inch on blow sand... well except for that time she ran into it with the big tractor.  Old days we used leveled silo staves under the feet and lotta outfits still do. That tank goes anywhere one is gonna have way bigger problems. 

 

 

 

That's just the issue right there. Tank movement in the future.

 

Remember the mountain. I don't live on flat ground like most of you do. I literally live on top of a pile of Boulders and they are CONSTANTLY MOVING.

 

 

In order for me to install a propane tank or exterior oil tank like k1, We NEED to have the ground prepared to do so. That's where the excavation companies come in.

 

There are thousands of miles of stone walls here because they keep coming up out of the ground year after year after year.

In order to set a tank, you have to dig down a minimum 48 inches to get below the frost line and then backfill with something like sand which has to be brought in. ...so those stones don't come up through the surface in the future.

 

 

9 hours ago, WHX?? said:

 

Beg to differ ... MY AREA is making it difficult. 

 

Just a part of living where I do.

 

Nature.  

[ebinmaine 77,050]

@WHX??

 

Look at it this way Bubba. If you want to put up a house in the middle of a forest you have to cut down some of the trees first.

If you want to put up a house next to a swamp you have to raise the land level so it's above the water line.

If you want to put up a house on tilted land you have to create a level spot for the building to set.

 

It's all about preparation. Just like welding or painting.

 

In my area you cannot dig into the land for the installation.

 

 

[F. Marra 17 111]

19 hours ago, Handy Don said:

For sure.

And shutting down a two-unit nuclear power plant about 10 miles away with an excellent operating record didn’t quite go to plan. The replacement power has been, for the most part, supplied using more costly gas turbine and oil-fired plants rather than the “renewable and eco-friendly” solar, wind, and hydro as promised (note that “less expensive” was NEVER promised ).

The data centers I have built and worked on all have 100k - 200k gallons of fuel oil underground storage tanks piped into massive generators to power them.

[WHX?? 54,460]

1 hour ago, ebinmaine said:

f Boulders and they are CONSTANTLY MOVING.

Yeah I guess I forget that. In the plow fields we turn over very large rocks that used to be 10 ft down and now at the surface.