Game Changer Heat & A/C In the Shop

[JCM 10,619]

Found an original WH used Red oil filter from the Eaton 1100 when cleaning and organizing the shop. Will have to save that up on a shelf . Early 90's vintage from the 520-H.

[WHX?? 54,436]

14 minutes ago, Blue Chips said:

I'm looking at getting something similar in the way of a ceiling-mount

Without a doubt the best way to heat a shop solid fuel aside. 

You really don't need a sealed combustion unit unless you can't get decent hanging height. 7 ft. and up. Wall furnaces are a no no unless direct vent (sealed combustion). 

Mine is on a wi fi thermostat so I can run it from anywhere ... perk of being in the trade. 

Edited 5 hours ago by WHX??

[JCM 10,619]

Sealed combustion is the only way by CODE to legally install it. No more drawing inside air anymore.  @WHX?? 

[JCM 10,619]

20 minutes ago, Blue Chips said:

 

 

 

The current electric heater in my shop is a 5,000 watt unit (a little over 17K BTU), and it can keep the shop (about 500 square feet) warm when the temps drop below zero, but the power bill  !

 

 

We're on CMP as well, and I'd probably use an unprintable expletive to describe the power bill, a good portion of which is attributable to my electric workshop heater. My workshop is in our old two-car garage, which is pretty well insulated...walls, ceiling, and garage doors...and the current 5,000-watt heater keeps it nice and cozy, but it doesn't feel quite as comfortable when I remind myself that my power bill is helping to subsidize Spain's economy...not that I have anything against Spain, but gee whiz.

 

AMEN

[WHX?? 54,436]

18 minutes ago, Blue Chips said:

condensation on my equipment, primarily during the cooler parts of the spring

Always a problem here Chips. Open that overhead and warm moist spring air makes the floor sweat profusely. Fans help. 

The one I piced about is a 30K flavor and great for my 768 sq ft shop but 45K is much more common. 

The big thing is don't oversize. I see 80ks in smaller garages and all they do is short cycle which is bad for efficiency and further unit internal condensation issues. 

Something guys don't know is a gas appliance is at peak efficiency when running 24/7. Bigger is better only applies to tractor HP. 

[WHX?? 54,436]

22 minutes ago, JCM said:

CODE

Not here Plunge unless prudent design prescribes it or a severely contaminated  environment. Welding fumes,  combustible fumes or those damned wood workers...  Had a wood working shop turn one into a gas fires solid fuel unit! You guys know how saws throw dust in the air. 

 

Commercial ... only code if less than 8' Ft from bottom of unit to finished floor. Yeah I have had inspectors measure. Or again design considerations. 

Edited 4 hours ago by WHX??

[WHX?? 54,436]

 On that filter Plunger ...  I had a hydro come in with that on it and I shoulda cleaned it up and put it on the vintage shelf instead of tossing.  Forgive me father for I have sinned ... 

Edited 4 hours ago by WHX??

[JCM 10,619]

1 hour ago, WHX?? said:

 

 

I do like that plenum they exhaust/draw from you have. Guessing a Modine option? Had to take some careful measuring to get lined up with the heater for strait out like that.  

 

 

 

My thought process on making the Modine heater line up with the concentric box was to make a cardboard box the exact dimensions of the heater with new cardboard ( as you are well aware of the amount of cardboard we generate in the trades ) Then transfer all dimensions from the heater on to the back of the box with a straight edge and a sharpie . Then mount the concentric. And yes that is a factory Modine option.

[WHX?? 54,436]

2 minutes ago, JCM said:

Modine heater line up with the concentric box

And then have framing studs in the way  ...   

Pic of the outside Plunge? 

Edited 4 hours ago by WHX??

[ebinmaine 77,044]

1 hour ago, WHX?? said:

No offence guys but folks that did any type of electric heating were thought to be on crack be it in a shop, garage or residence. It was a quick easy and affordable install but just too outrageous power bills in these parts

 

 

I agree in principle but when you're getting told that it's going to be up to $16,000 to do the installation... then you go a different direction

 

I'll NEVER in my lifetime justify that much initial expense.  

[Blue Chips 642]

21 minutes ago, WHX?? said:

Without a doubt the best way to heat a shop solid fuel aside. 

You really don't need a sealed combustion unit unless you can't get decent hanging height. 7 ft. and up. Wall furnaces are a no no unless direct vent (sealed combustion). 

Mine is on a wi fi thermostat so I can run it from anywhere ... perk of being in the trade. 

 

5 minutes ago, WHX?? said:

The big thing is don't oversize. I see 80ks in smaller garages and all they do is short cycle which is bad for efficiency and further unit internal condensation issues. 

Something guys don't know is a gas appliance is at peak efficiency when running 24/7. Bigger is better only applies to tractor HP. 

 

The bottom of a ceiling-mount heater in my shop would be roughly 6-1/2 feet above the floor, as it only has an 8-foot ceiling. Our new garage has an 11-foot ceiling, but insulating and heating the new garage is way down on the to-do list.

 

I don't mind paying a little extra for a sealed-combustion LP unit. A stainless exhaust and intake could go straight through the back wall of the shop, where they would be out of sight. As to size, I'm thinking that 30K BTU should be plenty. I'm open to suggestions as to brand and model.

[JCM 10,619]

$  16,000. Never heard such a thing.

[WHX?? 54,436]

Looks like your a machinist Chips  ... yeah cutting fluids can sow up a unit heater. Sealed combustion not the worst idea. 

 

Just throwing this out there for brain food. In some cases a small ...say 40k ...high efficiency furnace is not a bad idea. Larger shop might be the route to go. 

Some can be hung horizontal and easy pvc sealed venting. Really only con is they require a drain that won't freeze. Several work arounds for that tho &

efficiency off the hook. 

 

For example these are made by Lennox International and rebranded for online sales. Not that I condone buying crap like this off the internet but hey ...  with the right help with pros here and common sense install is no harder than rebuilding a K241.

 

https://www.alpinehomeair.com/product/furnaces-heaters/forced-air/natural-gas-lp/blueridge/bg802uh070av12?linkfrom=froogle&campaign=1781746484&adgroupid=72841299567&product_partition_id=2490333725924&keyword=&matchtype=&device=c&content=714669832557&network=g&gclid=CjwKCAiAqKbMBhBmEiwAZ3UboDeR0eoeeksxpHVh_zA0Vp7T7C85Du2fslrEDibzYCPB0ladVVXD5hoC9tsQAvD_BwE&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=1781746484&gbraid=0AAAAAD_tWfaEuAf1jVdl7h-A528VCwyqW

[JCM 10,619]

5 minutes ago, Blue Chips said:

 

 

The bottom of a ceiling-mount heater in my shop would be roughly 6-1/2 feet above the floor, as it only has an 8-foot ceiling. Our new garage has an 11-foot ceiling, but insulating and heating the new garage is way down on the to-do list.

 

I don't mind paying a little extra for a sealed-combustion LP unit. A stainless exhaust and intake could go straight through the back wall of the shop, where they would be out of sight. As to size, I'm thinking that 30K BTU should be plenty. I'm open to suggestions as to brand and model.

As far as I remember if you can drive a vehicle in the minimum height of a Gas heater is 8' off the finished floor. The exhaust does not need to be stainless steel. The 30,000 is by far quieter than the 45,000 in my situation. I really hate to quote the National Gas Code because of so many variations State to State I assume. And I am NOT active in the trade anymore full time. Only when I get an offer I can't refuse. My experiences are in Mass mostly. I do like Modine products though.

[Handy Don 15,742]

1 hour ago, Blue Chips said:

We're on CMP as well, and I'd probably use an unprintable expletive to describe the power bill,

Gents, I have some sympathy but try not to grouse too loudly.

 

I’d take your ~13¢ per kilowatt hour over my ~23¢ (New York, Con Edison) any day.

And our “base transmission/connection” cost is also much higher, as well.

[wallfish 19,036]

1 minute ago, Handy Don said:

Con Edison

Well, why do you think they call it CON Edison? 

[WHX?? 54,436]

35 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

going to be up to $16,000 to do the installation.

 

28 minutes ago, JCM said:

16,000. Never heard such a thing.

I have guys ...  I was one of them. I would walk into a new build with the idiotic thinking that if a guy could afford a build like this he could afford me. Yes forgive me but again I have sinned.

Most times I was busier than a nine peckered billy goat, didn't need the work & couldn't find good help and my price dictated that. I shoulda been upfront and just told customers that. 

 

I take it in your new shop Big Unit? On the side working for a bud I coulda done yours for less than 3k. Nothin fancy mind you but woulda got the job done and something to build on. A  decent propane gas supply woulda been the only thing. 

 

15 minutes ago, JCM said:

minimum height of a Gas heater is 8' off the finished floor. The exhaust does not need to be stainless steel.

Correct Plunge ..  B vent is fine for most just keep an eye on corrosion. Particularly on the vent connector. Long term thing. 

 

15 minutes ago, JCM said:

National Gas Code because of so many variations State to State

Got that right too Plunge. NFPA 54 is the bible for pros tho. 

 

15 minutes ago, JCM said:

NOT active in the trade anymore

Yeah but I do try to keep up on things just not a priority anymore. You still keep your licenses Jim? 

Edited 4 hours ago by WHX??

[Handy Don 15,742]

2 minutes ago, wallfish said:

Well, why do you think they call it CON Edison? 

Cute. But very old!

I read their “every three years” submissions to the Public Service Commission that evaluates/approves/denies proposed rates. What stands out is the cost of installing and maintaining extremely high capacity service via underground infrastructure to the high-density parts of NYC. Think of 1,400 people housed in a single 5-ish acre city block.  

You’d think the sheltered wiring would be good, but flooding of low-lying areas plus subway tunnels, as well as salt intrusion via street manholes are costly to fix.

[JCM 10,619]

Yes Jimbo I keep my Mass, NH and Maine Master PLG license as well as my Journeyman PLG license and Mass Gas Fitters License current as well as my PHCC & NH schooling current. Also a Mass Oil Burner License current.

[Blue Chips 642]

18 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

I’d take your ~13¢ per kilowatt hour over my ~23¢ (New York, Con Edison) any day.

And our “base transmission/connection” cost is also much higher, as well.

 

I think you overlooked something. The $.13 per kWh energy rate that you mentioned does not include delivery charges and sales tax.

 

My latest power bill was $612.98 for 2192 kWh, which works out to $.28 per kWh. That includes CMP delivery charges and "Standard Offer" supplier energy charges, plus a few bucks for tax.

 

The CMP delivery charges were more than the energy charges.

 

 

 

[WHX?? 54,436]

1 hour ago, Blue Chips said:

I'm open to suggestions as to brand and model.

Their all junk nowadays guy. Just some's better junk than others. Modine is ok I used their bigger units. Sterling is ok and I was brainwashed on Lennox and liked my LF 25's ... well I carried parts for them is why. 

https://www.lennox.com/residential/products/heating-cooling/garage-heaters/lf25

 

 

Any brand names & sealed comb. ones you are gonna have to go through a dealer and his margins. Get ready for sticker shock. 

 

Big boxes ones are ok for the DIY if you put them in right. Just can't beat their price. I'd wanna coach you big time on those you go that route. 

For example 

https://www.menards.com/main/heating-cooling/heaters/gas-garage-heaters/mr-heater-reg-big-maxx-dual-fuel-forced-air-garage-heater/f260550/p-1444441200665-c-6861.htm

 

29 minutes ago, JCM said:

keep my Mass, NH and Maine Master PLG license

I did too when I sold out but got them 4 years for free since I am a vet. Just in case side work ... that ain't gonna happen since I got a full blown retirement tractor addiction!  For what the powers that be charge these days for them I could buy more  horses... thers a 877 for sale local that's...  

Edited 3 hours ago by WHX??

[ebinmaine 77,044]

1 hour ago, JCM said:

$  16,000. Never heard such a thing.

 

 Jim & Jim...   that wasn't just for the system. That was for the excavation involved because of the mountainside.

We're talking for the house here. Not the shop. Absolutely no way I would put that kind of money into a shop heat system when we have a perfectly good wood stove out there.

 

For the house, we were considering either propane or electricity after the huge oil spill in 2019.  

 

 

The propane system would have required 25 to 40 ft of digging 4 ft down and placing the lines. Also, the tank mount area, which would have had to be excavated.

 

Because we have no way of knowing what size the boulders would be underground until we start digging, there's no way to give an accurate quote for excavation.

 

Then, bring in the entirely new system.

 

The excavation would have had great potential to be as much, or more, then the actual system installation itself.

 

 

 

You guys put to actual thought. How much do you spend on propane or heating oil a year???

 

WE SPEND LESS THAN $1000 PER YEAR ON HEAT.  

 

 

People get all freaked out about Electric Heating systems. I used to as well. But now that I have one, I don't know that I would go a different direction.

 

[Blue Chips 642]

5 minutes ago, WHX?? said:

Their all junk nowadays guy. Just some's better junk than others. Modine is ok I used their bigger units. Sterling is ok and I was brainwashed on Lennox and liked my LF 25's ... well I carried parts for them is why. 

https://www.lennox.com/residential/products/heating-cooling/garage-heaters/lf25

Any brand names ones you are gonna have to go through a dealer and his margins. 

Big boxes ones are ok for the DIY if you put them in right. Just can't beat their price. I'd wanna coach you big time on those you go that route. 

For example 

https://www.menards.com/main/heating-cooling/heaters/gas-garage-heaters/mr-heater-reg-big-maxx-dual-fuel-forced-air-garage-heater/f260550/p-1444441200665-c-6861.htm

 

If you don't mind, maybe I'll PM you and pick your brain a bit when I get closer to making a decision about selecting a heater. 

 

 

[JCM 10,619]

So you did get the wood stove hooked up in the shop EB ? And an electric heater with a/c combo ?

Edited 3 hours ago by JCM

[ebinmaine 77,044]

31 minutes ago, JCM said:

So you did get the wood stove hooked up in the shop EB ? And an electric heater with a/c combo ?

 

Because we've been busy getting the Trina momma moved to her new place in our basement apartment we didn't have as much firewood this year. 

No woodstove for the workshop yet...

The shop woodstove will be in service for next winter.  

 

Electric heat 5000 watts above the front door. 

Electric AC and heat above the rear door. 

 I also use 2 of the oil filled radiator room heaters on separate circuits. 

 

Turns out that the AC & heat combo is a pretty weak heater. Excellent cooler though. 

Because of that I got a stronger heater to go above the rear door. Haven't installed it yet.