'74 c160 Auto Ring Job

[Joker72 91]

I have a great pulling and mechanically solid '74 c160 Auto but it burns a bit of oil.  I would like to use acceessories.  Would you have any reservation about putting the effort into replacing rings and re-seating valves with intentions of using it for work?

 

Thanks!

Edited January 28 by Joker72

[kpinnc 17,575]

1 hour ago, Joker72 said:

Would you have any reservation about putting the effort into replacing rings and re-seating valves with intentions of using it for work?

 

I would say that's a great reason to rebuild that engine. Do it right, and it will last another 40 years. 

 

I would spend the money to have the bore reworked, and the valve seats. Also check the crank pin as per the manual. OEM pistons, rods, and rings are hard to find, but there are decent aftermarket ones available. 

 

If you download the Kohler manual you can handle the rest of it. Me personally, I would also delete the balance gears. It'll thump a bit more, but you won't have to worry about them destroying that K341...

[ri702bill 11,617]

5 hours ago, kpinnc said:

I would spend the money to have the bore reworked, and the valve seats. Also check the crank pin as per the manual

Solid advice. The old saying "The more you look, the more you find" comes to mind. The source of the oil consumption is not limited to the rings - the clearance between the valves & their guides may now be excessive - if so best to replace both. Do this first - when you pull the head off, look for the "STD" marking on top of the piston. IF it already says ".030", you will most likely be looking for a different rebuildable engine... If it says ".010" you can still go to .030 over - IF that is enough to clean up the entire bore after reboring. Accurate measurements are required to determine this... You say you want this to be a worker - .010 over may be your best bet.

[ri702bill 11,617]

But wait, there's more! The crankshaft journal may need to be ground - if not at the max limit now. Doing so requires a new rod to match....

Important note - If going the full rebuild route, the machine shop needs the new parts in hand before any boring or grinding can be done. This allows them to machine to the proper clearances...

[ebinmaine 77,971]

4 hours ago, ri702bill said:

Do this first - when you pull the head off, look for the "STD" marking on top of the piston. IF it already says ".030", you will most likely be looking for a different rebuildable engine

 

Some K341 engines unofficially can be bored much more. 

That'd obviously be up to the rebuilder to determine.  

Not something I'd do without proper scanning equipment.  

[dandan111 66]

I would consider how much work? A regular mowing tractor all summer? 

[Joker72 91]

I wonder what the chances of the measurements not being too far out of spec are.  ??

[Joker72 91]

@kpinncWhat is the purpose of the balance gear?

[kpinnc 17,575]

7 minutes ago, Joker72 said:

@kpinncWhat is the purpose of the balance gear?

 

Two theories on that one:

 

First- Kohler installed them in K301, K321, K341. Then in M12, M14, and M16 engines to reduce vibrations associated with a single cylinder flathead engine's combustion cycle. 

 

Secondly- When the before mentioned engines reach a certain amount of wear, the gears work well for opening ventilation "windows" in the block. AKA "grenade gears" as they are commonly known. 

 

All that being said: When the bearings and shims are replaced as per the service manual (and properly timed), the chances of them failing is greatly reduced. But many don't keep up with the wear on an old Kohler and don't rebuild it until the engine is just about worn out. Those tiny needle bearings don't always last as long as the rest of the components. 

 

So to prevent worry in the future, some folks just remove them. I've done it myself and while it will be evident on a K341 it eliminates the worry of destroying the engine if a balance gear decides to change places with the crank. 

 

 

[Joker72 91]

@kpinncHow can you tell which variation of OLD TYPE/NEW TYPE balance gear config you have?

 

Edited January 29 by Joker72

[ebinmaine 77,971]

I second the removal of the balance gears. 

On an automatic tractor you'll need to keep the RPM just below the normal 3600. 

I run mine at 3200, 3300 and it does well.  

 

 

 

[WHX?? 55,829]

When you pop the head show us some pics of the block deck and head. See if there's any oil wash going on. Check the bore for wear marks and issues. 

[oliver2-44 11,333]

Some Tractor manufacture's such as WheelHorse chose to have Kohler install bancce gears wile Salome like John Deere. left them out from the start. 

[kpinnc 17,575]

4 hours ago, Joker72 said:

@kpinncHow can you tell which variation of OLD TYPE/NEW TYPE balance gear config you have?

 

Internally, as well as the cast iron blocks themselves- there are no differences between K301/ M12, K321/M14, and K341/M16. The differences are in the aluminum side bearing plate and sheet metal. This changed how the starters bolted up and of course the carbs changed over time as well. 

[pfrederi 20,128]

Newer balance gears (after 9641310) have loose needles.  Older ones are caged.

 

 

 

 

 

[kpinnc 17,575]

2 hours ago, pfrederi said:

Newer balance gears (after 9641310) have loose needles.  Older ones are caged.

 

I guess it's true we (meaning me) can learn something new every day! 

 

 

[ineedanother 1,992]

You guys make me nervous. 

[ebinmaine 77,971]

9 minutes ago, ineedanother said:

You guys make me nervous. 

 

 

Why?

[ineedanother 1,992]

Just now, ebinmaine said:

 

 

Why?

because I have two k341 and every time someone mentions "ventilation windows" @kpinnc in a big block, I get nervous.  Neither one of mine have been opened up but one is a '75, the other is '81. Neither one smokes or gives me pause but they have some years under their drive belts.

[ebinmaine 77,971]

10 minutes ago, ineedanother said:

because I have two k341 and every time someone mentions "ventilation windows" @kpinnc in a big block, I get nervous.  Neither one of mine have been opened up but one is a '75, the other is '81. Neither one smokes or gives me pause but they have some years under their drive belts.

 

IMHO.... get the gears out.  

 

We've had half a dozen or more engines opened up. 

Every set of balance gears except one was loose. That's in the '74 C160-8 Cinnamon Horse. 

I already have an engine set aside for it. 

 

 

[oliver2-44 11,333]

@Joker72

Here's some pictures of the C161 I picked several years ago. 

It was parked for many years as the balance gear destroyed the side of the piston.

You can see a needle in the oil pan and piston picture trash.

If you keep the balance gears, when you replace the bearings you also have to check the short polished shafts they ride on. As I recall, the shafts have a very tight wear allowance.

[ineedanother 1,992]

Well, it's a bit of work for those of us without a lot of work space or time. Unlike @Joker72, I don't have ring or valve issues. I don't want to derail this thread more than I already have but is it reasonable to open the block and break the balance gears to remove them without getting into an entire teardown? That would be one gasket and probably a day or so of work.

[Joker72 91]

My main objective is to get it to stop burning so much oil.  Can someone explain how a valve clearance adjustment could reduce oil consumption/smoking?

[oliver2-44 11,333]

Yes I have remove them from 2 engines. The lower gear I could get the snap ring off and remove.

The other I split with a sharp rap on a cold chisel.

I was soft of amazed how easy it split with a sharp cold chisel and a solid, but not pounding blow.

Some like to drive the shafts inward to remove them, then reinstall the shafts.

To each his own

[Joker72 91]

Per @WHX??, I'm going to let the snow threats blow over and then crack the head for a peak inside.  I'll post pics.  I'm hoping I can get enough measurements from the cylinder to give me some confidence in it's condition.

 

As is, the tractor run's like my grandfathers '74 c160 did in the early 80's.  Hydro appears to be very solid.

 

Appreciate the heads up on the balance gear.  

 

Thanks to all.