856 Wheelhorse Electrical ignition questions

[FLtractor 108]

Evening,

 

While in the the process of figuring out various issues my 856 has, the new Wheelhorse ignition I ordered will

be arriving this week hopefully.. can someone recommend a good book that’s simple to understand about the process of electrical system as it would relate to our vintage tractors? Ohms, amps, volts, how to calculate how many amps ignition can handle with certian number of wire devices - lights ect ran to it, regulator workings, generator working, ignition ect. Possibly an online video? But enjoying physical book as well to the me break from being on my phone so much. 

Edited Sunday at 02:55 AM by FLtractor

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,912]

This older Kohler service manual covers the starter/generator - it is not in the newer manuals

The 523 page Demystification Guide explains the electrical basics followed by many wiring diagrams for later models.

 

[953 nut 63,520]

A while back Mike @squonk had a handy guide for wire size based on the load and distance.

[rmaynard 16,770]

If you have ordered coil, points, condenser, spark plug, spark plug wire, and correct ignition switch, (everything that is related to the ignition), then all you need is a wiring diagram, and the Kohler manual for settings. It's very simple.

 

 

[squonk 45,044]

I believe WH used either 16 or 14 ga. wire for the primary wiring with 6ga Battery cables. I use 14 ga and upsize the bat cables to 4ga especially on the starter gen models as they take close to 60 amps to start

[FLtractor 108]

17 hours ago, gwest_ca said:

This older Kohler service manual covers the starter/generator - it is not in the newer manuals

The 523 page Demystification Guide explains the electrical basics followed by many wiring diagrams for later models.

 

Thank you very much. Will need to print them out

[FLtractor 108]

9 hours ago, 953 nut said:

A while back Mike @squonk had a handy guide for wire size based on the load and distance.

Thank you for the recommendation tag assist 

[FLtractor 108]

8 hours ago, squonk said:

I believe WH used either 16 or 14 ga. wire for the primary wiring with 6ga Battery cables. I use 14 ga and upsize the bat cables to 4ga especially on the starter gen models as they take close to 60 amps to start

Thank you for the helpful info. Would there be any benefit to using 14 gauge instead of 16 gauge wire from fuel pump to coil and battery? It’s a posi faucet electric pump. Is it possible to use too heavy duty of a wire regarding electric current flowing from component A to component B.. not just too big in terms of wire size diameter more or less easier to bend maneuver ect? 

Edited Sunday at 11:15 PM by FLtractor

[FLtractor 108]

9 hours ago, rmaynard said:

If you have ordered coil, points, condenser, spark plug, spark plug wire, and correct ignition switch, (everything that is related to the ignition), then all you need is a wiring diagram, and the Kohler manual for settings. It's very simple.

 

 

Thank you for very helpful diagram and info. At this time I only replaced the spark plug, and going to install new ignition once arrives and new electric fuel pump. Figured I should replace all the ignition components yet since currently does have good spark.. unless I should just replace coil, spark plug wire condenser and the wires to all of them? And just clean points instead of replacing? Since have no idea how old any of it is or last time changed or hour of use. Best to start brand new with everything now so i know how current (no pun intended) is? Or as old saying goes if not broke don’t fix it?  Could put hour meter on that wraps around coil wire to tell time of use once replaced all igition parts? 

Edited Sunday at 11:07 PM by FLtractor

[squonk 45,044]

22 minutes ago, FLtractor said:

Thank you for the helpful info. Would there be any benefit to using 14 gauge instead of 16 gauge wire from fuel pump to coil and battery? It’s a posi faucet electric pump. Is it possible to use too heavy duty of a wire regarding electric current flowing from component A to component B.. not just too big in terms of wire size diameter more or less easier to bend maneuver ect? 

Heavier wires only drawback is it's harder to run and bend neatly. There is little benefit to run larger wire to the coil. The only benefit is strength as ignition doesn't need a lot of amps. Starting the engine takes a lot of amps and larger wire can handle it better as it ages.

[FLtractor 108]

2 minutes ago, squonk said:

Heavier wires only drawback is it's harder to run and bend neatly. There is little benefit to run larger wire to the coil. The only benefit is strength as ignition doesn't need a lot of amps. Starting the engine takes a lot of amps and larger wire can handle it better as it ages.

Oh ok. So as you said only larger required wire is for the battery terminals to ignition and ground.. 

Now on to find the best local price by the foot 14 or 16 gauge  wire for other 856 needs. Thank you 

[Handy Don 15,550]

18 hours ago, FLtractor said:

Oh ok. So as you said only larger required wire is for the battery terminals to ignition and ground.. 

Now on to find the best local price by the foot 14 or 16 gauge  wire for other 856 needs. Thank you 

Note that you are looking for stranded copper wire intended for automotive or similar use.

Solid core or copper-coated aluminum will have shorter lives and/or be harder work.

[FLtractor 108]

7 hours ago, Handy Don said:

Note that you are looking for stranded copper wire intended for automotive or similar use.

Solid core or copper-coated aluminum will have shorter lives and/or be harder work.

https://www.westmarine.com/ancor-16-awg-primary-wire-by-the-foot-red-214064.html?utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=GGL_PLA_Marine Electrical_High Margin&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=22685667024&gbraid=0AAAAAD_lEepweHWYAhbW-72w7Qnz-rRqt&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIu7bNytf1kQMV055aBR0NCQBOEAQYBCABEgLjP_D_BwE
 

would this work? 

[Handy Don 15,550]

16 hours ago, FLtractor said:

would this work? 

Perfectly!

[FLtractor 108]

20 hours ago, Handy Don said:

Perfectly!

Bought 20 feet of 14 gauge and 16 gauge yesterday for $10.00 total. 
what is the purpose of the gen warning light features on the 856 wiring diagram? 

[pfrederi 19,436]

1 hour ago, FLtractor said:

Bought 20 feet of 14 gauge and 16 gauge yesterday for $10.00 total. 
what is the purpose of the gen warning light features on the 856 wiring diagram? 

 

If it lights up generator output is less than battery voltage...Not a good thing.  It will light up as you crank the engine and as engine winds down after you turn it off.

[FLtractor 108]

23 hours ago, pfrederi said:

 

If it lights up generator output is less than battery voltage...Not a good thing.  It will light up as you crank the engine and as engine winds down after you turn it off.

1. So any light up of dash indicator bulb is not good? Or just on at crank and winds down normal?

2. What is easiest best way to test and diagnose if generator bad and need replacement? 

3. if it needs replacement what can I expect to pay for new or used a K181 generator and best place to get one? 

Edited 21 hours ago by FLtractor

[sqrlgtr 1,724]

4 minutes ago, FLtractor said:

3. if it needs replacement what can I expect to pay for new or used generator and best place to get one?

I haven't seen one yet that couldn't be rebuilt. Most of the time a good cleaning and new brushes will take care of them. I have had more trouble with voltage regulator's and wiring being bad then starter-gen's.

[pfrederi 19,436]

Use your multimeter check battery voltage engine off.  (Fully charged battery should read 12.6 volts.  Start engine and bring up to full speed.  Then read battery voltage again should read around 14    (13.5 to 14.5). 

 

If voltage does not come up next step is to see if the Generator or the voltage regulator is the problem.

 

With engine running run a jumper wire from the "F" terminal on the generator (an F is stamped in the housing) to the "-" terminal on the battery.  The engine should labor a bit and voltage jump up to over 14.  If it does go up then your regulator is the problem if it doesn't it is the generator itself.

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,912]

The generator bulb socket is a special one. Both the - and + are isolated. Just a heads up.