856 Carb drain, bad fuel, clean questions

[FLtractor 88]

Afternoon,

 

Just replaced battery, fuel line, fuel tank valve, on my 856. Tractor previous owner said only used regular gas.. I’ve bought non ethanol to use from now on, but want to get carb in good shape first. 
On to rest of fuel system, being carburetor. Attached pictures of my carb. 
So I understand, take off air filter nut, then find correct socket for bottom of carb fuel bowl, take off carb bowl, drain out sediments and clean bowl with carb cleaner, hopefully gasket isn’t damage when removing. 
Then I remove choke linkage and bolts holding carb to engine? Take carb off and spray with carb cleaner in throat and jets, find small enough screw driver to fit inside jet and remove jet and needle, spray all with carb cleaner to check for debris and varnish from years of regular ethanol gas build up. Clean carb then replace on tractor as it was in reserve order? Anything else I missed or need to do differently for a better running tractor after? I believe the ethanol fuel caused my tractor to stop starting due to dirty debris carburetor. 

Edited yesterday at 06:55 PM by FLtractor

[ebinmaine 75,601]

35 minutes ago, FLtractor said:

hopefully gasket isn’t damage when removing. 

 

You're headed the right General direction. That carburetor gasket. It's going to be trash. That's not negotiable. Get a good kit from kohler. I refuse to use aftermarket. I can send you the numbers when I get home.

 

Great carburetor cleaning is all about having great patience. After you clean it, do it again. And then when you're done with that, do it again.

 

I use an ultrasonic cleaner to do mine and whoever sends me a carb. Feel free to do so.

 

I also use about two cans of brake clean.

 

After a complete disassembly including all of the screws, spray every orifice inside outside backwards forward up down left right and then back again every direction. It's not the least bit complicated. But you definitely want to be thorough.

[Handy Don 15,080]

Unless or until you have reason to suspect the needle valve seats, I would not mess with them. Most carb kits do not include replacement seats and removing them (if, in fact, they are removable) can cause more damage than help. Needles yes, seats no. The “jets” in small engine carbs tend to be precision holes drilled strategically in the bore. Ultrasound and copious carb clean (applied while wearing protective gear on hands and face) is the “go to” method. 

Cleaning (sometimes more than once, twice, or three times) is adequate unless serious fuel contamination has irreversibly damaged the carb body--in which case a new carb is likely needed.

BEFORE removing needle valves, gently close them and write down the exact number of turns needed so you can put them back where they were upon reassembly!

Edited 20 hours ago by Handy Don

[ri702bill 10,529]

Ah, yes. Fun with Carter Model "N" carbs....

Just a few things...

 

Do use an ultrasonic cleaner with the carb disassembled. You do not have to remove the choke plate & shaft. If you do - watch out for the detent ball & spring!!!

Look at the bottom of the inside of the bowl. Severe pitting from ethanol fuel is a fuel leak about to happen. Best to replace it.

The high-speed adjusting screw is hollow. There is an external hole to this center passage and an exit hole near the tip. This entire passage MUST be clean, as it is the air bleed for the high-speed air / fuel mix. If left dirty, adjusting the mix may not be possible.

Once cleaned and reinstalled, the real "fun" is getting the transition off of the idle circuit to the high-speed circuit correct without a stumble or hesitation. Really stubborn ones require a load (mower or other belt driven implement engaged) to do it right. Do this with the engine warmed up, choke off & air filter installed.

Final note - it is better to have the mix on the rich side than on running it lean.

 

[ineedanother 1,808]

Good information here but I'll add IMO you can't effectively clean a carburetor without removing and replacing the welch plugs. They're cheap and easy to replace. They cover drillings in the carburetor body that you really need to be able to spray cleaner through or to have uncovered when you submerge the body in an ultrasonic tank (also highly recommended and relatively cheap at harbor freight or online). 

 

DonyBoy is a good source of information but I don't subscribe to his removal method. I never drill through them, I just carefully drive a scratch awl through and pry them out. Clean the carb, set the correct replacement plug in the milled body and set it (gently) with a blunt punch. If you foul the plug just pry it out and set another until you get it right. Really easy once you've done a couple.

 

 

[Retired Wrencher 6,152]

16 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

 

You're headed the right General direction. That carburetor gasket. It's going to be trash. That's not negotiable. Get a good kit from kohler. I refuse to use aftermarket. I can send you the numbers when I get home.

 

Great carburetor cleaning is all about having great patience. After you clean it, do it again. And then when you're done with that, do it again.

 

I use an ultrasonic cleaner to do mine and whoever sends me a carb. Feel free to do so.

 

I also use about two cans of brake clean.

 

After a complete disassembly including all of the screws, spray every orifice inside outside backwards forward up down left right and then back again every direction. It's not the least bit complicated. But you definitely want to be thorough.

I can agree with Eric. He’s done many carburetors for me because I can’t hold onto small parts. I keep dropping them. It was because of the job I had. I believe they make carb cleaners with a one gallon  paint can? Put it in and let it sit for a couple days and it comes out clean. And yet I’ve never done it but that’s what Eric does.

[ebinmaine 75,601]

1 hour ago, Retired Wrencher said:

carb cleaners with a one gallon  paint can? Put it in and let it sit for a couple days and it comes out clean. And yet I’ve never done it but that’s what Eric does

 

 

Those cans work okay but they're pretty weak. I stopped using that method a couple years ago when I got my ultrasonic cleaner.

[sqrlgtr 1,263]

I have had good luck with the Berryman carb cleaner in the gallon container, although its several years old and they may have changed the formula... They have a small parts basket in them also to hold all the small parts. I will leave carb in a couple of days in the berrymans than take some spray carb cleaner and spray everything out/off a couple times then reassemble. This is an automatic function when I get a new to me machine unless it comes from someone who I know has probably already done it recently. Per our PM conversation, I just noticed in your pics that you have a later plastic fuel pump and believe these are disposable, not rebuildable. 

[ebinmaine 75,601]

1 minute ago, sqrlgtr said:

you have a later plastic fuel pump and believe these are disposable, not rebuildable. 

 

I'll agree with that

[rmaynard 16,689]

I remember a few years ago while discussing carburetors with Brian @buckrancher, he said the he finds it best to soak the carb and all non-plastic and rubber parts in regular lacquer thinner.

I also fully concur with @ri702bill that the inside of the high speed needle is hollow and It's the most missed place when cleaning these carbs.

[sqrlgtr 1,263]

10 minutes ago, rmaynard said:

I remember a few years ago while discussing carburetors with Brian @buckrancher, he said the he finds it best to soak the carb and all non-plastic and rubber parts in regular lacquer thinner.

I also fully concur with @ri702bill that the inside of the high speed needle is hollow and It's the most missed place when cleaning these carbs.

 

Thanks for reminder do not soak any rubber or plastic in the berrymans ask me how I know. That's the rub of the berrymans and the draw for an ultrasonic cleaner . As far as I know the older k series Kohlers' didn't have any plastic in/on carbs except float needle, which I usually replace when cleaning or rebuilding or just leave out of soak, not sure about the Magnums' or others.

[FLtractor 88]

19 hours ago, Handy Don said:

Unless or until you have reason to suspect the needle valve seats, I would not mess with them. Most carb kits do not include replacement seats and removing them (if, in fact, they are removable) can cause more damage than help. Needles yes, seats no. The “jets” in small engine carbs tend to be precision holes drilled strategically in the bore. Ultrasound and copious carb clean (applied while wearing protective gear on hands and face) is the “go to” method. 

Cleaning (sometimes more than once, twice, or three times) is adequate unless serious fuel contamination has irreversibly damaged the carb body--in which case a new carb is likely needed.

BEFORE removing needle valves, gently close them and write down the exact number of turns needed so you can put them back where they were upon reassembly!

Note.. EXACT turns and intricate details. Will keep in mind. Thank you 

[FLtractor 88]

17 hours ago, ri702bill said:

Ah, yes. Fun with Carter Model "N" carbs....

Just a few things...

 

Do use an ultrasonic cleaner with the carb disassembled. You do not have to remove the choke plate & shaft. If you do - watch out for the detent ball & spring!!!

Look at the bottom of the inside of the bowl. Severe pitting from ethanol fuel is a fuel leak about to happen. Best to replace it.

The high-speed adjusting screw is hollow. There is an external hole to this center passage and an exit hole near the tip. This entire passage MUST be clean, as it is the air bleed for the high-speed air / fuel mix. If left dirty, adjusting the mix may not be possible.

Once cleaned and reinstalled, the real "fun" is getting the transition off of the idle circuit to the high-speed circuit correct without a stumble or hesitation. Really stubborn ones require a load (mower or other belt driven implement engaged) to do it right. Do this with the engine warmed up, choke off & air filter installed.

Final note - it is better to have the mix on the rich side than on running it lean.

 

Note.. clean best i can making sure passages spotless for best proper fuel mix.

[FLtractor 88]

57 minutes ago, rmaynard said:

I remember a few years ago while discussing carburetors with Brian @buckrancher, he said the he finds it best to soak the carb and all non-plastic and rubber parts in regular lacquer thinner.

I also fully concur with @ri702bill that the inside of the high speed needle is hollow and It's the most missed place when cleaning these carbs.

Note. Soak carb in dip and clean inside hollow high speed needle 

[FLtractor 88]

1 hour ago, sqrlgtr said:

I have had good luck with the Berryman carb cleaner in the gallon container, although its several years old and they may have changed the formula... They have a small parts basket in them also to hold all the small parts. I will leave carb in a couple of days in the berrymans than take some spray carb cleaner and spray everything out/off a couple times then reassemble. This is an automatic function when I get a new to me machine unless it comes from someone who I know has probably already done it recently. Per our PM conversation, I just noticed in your pics that you have a later plastic fuel pump and believe these are disposable, not rebuildable. 

So see if fuel even passing through fuel pump properly with fuel line removal method then consider replacement given years of ethanol fuel used.. possibly switching to electric fuel pump. 
Can you clear how this fuel pump works being analog?

1. fuel goes from tank to right inside left side of fuel pump hole. 
2.fuel passes thru fuel pump to right side hole.

3. Fuel enters fuel line on right side of pump and goes up in the curved hose where it then enters carburetor to be misted vaporized to hopefully have proper air fuel mixture ratio to achieve combustion to make engine start and run properly? 
4. if I Do have issue with fuel pump and want to temporarily run tractor without it… (i have been told no fuel pump can have engine issues running when not on level ground and when gas tank low on fuel.. but just so i understand how this works) the fuel line just goes from tank .. but to the right side hole of carburetor.. where up curved fuel pump hose is currently in picture? Is that all correct?

[FLtractor 88]

15 hours ago, ineedanother said:

Good information here but I'll add IMO you can't effectively clean a carburetor without removing and replacing the welch plugs. They're cheap and easy to replace. They cover drillings in the carburetor body that you really need to be able to spray cleaner through or to have uncovered when you submerge the body in an ultrasonic tank (also highly recommended and relatively cheap at harbor freight or online). 

 

DonyBoy is a good source of information but I don't subscribe to his removal method. I never drill through them, I just carefully drive a scratch awl through and pry them out. Clean the carb, set the correct replacement plug in the milled body and set it (gently) with a blunt punch. If you foul the plug just pry it out and set another until you get it right. Really easy once you've done a couple.

 

 

Note: watch Video and make sure to remember Welch pumps issues. 

[sqrlgtr 1,263]

@FLtractor My suggestion would be to take fuel line off carb and take spark plug out, so engine will turn over easier/quicker when you turn it over with starter, and if you have fuel come out that line, while turning over with starter, you probably be all right with fuel pump you have. Someone has replaced the original fuel pump with one of the later plastic pumps and if it is pumping fuel and not leaking just run with it. Some of the older Kohler fuel pumps were driven off a rod to cam and others were just a pulse/vacuum type but look the same on outside. I can't remember what type the later plastic pumps are. If you wanted to run engine only by gravity feed might be better off with a tank you can put above engine. I have a little motorcycle tuning fuel tank I use sometimes while doing such stuff as this. Hope this helps and that is a very good video to watch if you haven't already.

[FLtractor 88]

2 hours ago, sqrlgtr said:

@FLtractor My suggestion would be to take fuel line off carb and take spark plug out, so engine will turn over easier/quicker when you turn it over with starter, and if you have fuel come out that line, while turning over with starter, you probably be all right with fuel pump you have. Someone has replaced the original fuel pump with one of the later plastic pumps and if it is pumping fuel and not leaking just run with it. Some of the older Kohler fuel pumps were driven off a rod to cam and others were just a pulse/vacuum type but look the same on outside. I can't remember what type the later plastic pumps are. If you wanted to run engine only by gravity feed might be better off with a tank you can put above engine. I have a little motorcycle tuning fuel tank I use sometimes while doing such stuff as this. Hope this helps and that is a very good video to watch if you haven't already.

Took spark plug out…disconnected carb to fuel pump fuel line.. started engine with key.. fuel was present in fuel pump plastic hose end connection, fuel present in seam of fuel pump plastic housing and fuel present on chassis below.. but no fuel appeared to shoot out of pump.. i believe it may be leaking?? Added pictures. 
Also, for my replacement fuel pump I’m going to use for temporary use.. only gasket needed is this one they provided 2 of? Between tractor and carburetor? Where it matches metal outline of seal? I do NOT need to seal it with any kind of sealant? Or open up carb bowl and seal that gasket? It also came with a plastic valve shutoff and a metal L screw in to tank piece?  supposed to be used in line or as tank shut off beneath fuel tank? Which I already replaced with metal shut off. 

[sqrlgtr 1,263]

A healthy fuel pump will squirt fuel pretty good. I don't use any sealant on carb or fuel pump myself but have seen others use it on the fuel pump to block gasket. I believe the fuel fitting in picture is one that goes into the carb and those fuel shut offs work fine for a little while but usually get hard to turn on and off, my experience anyhow. You mentioned that you already fixed the fuel shut off back at tank. Have you purchased another fuel pump yet? If not you may want to think about going with an electric but quickest would be to just get a replacement pump like you already have, I recommend getting a Kohler but they ain't cheap. I have not converted to an electric pump myself but a lot of guys on here swear by them, I have one put back to use later myself for a 312-8 that has fuel tank under seat ...

[FLtractor 88]

38 minutes ago, sqrlgtr said:

A healthy fuel pump will squirt fuel pretty good. I don't use any sealant on carb or fuel pump myself but have seen others use it on the fuel pump to block gasket. I believe the fuel fitting in picture is one that goes into the carb and those fuel shut offs work fine for a little while but usually get hard to turn on and off, my experience anyhow. You mentioned that you already fixed the fuel shut off back at tank. Have you purchased another fuel pump yet? If not you may want to think about going with an electric but quickest would be to just get a replacement pump like you already have, I recommend getting a Kohler but they ain't cheap. I have not converted to an electric pump myself but a lot of guys on here swear by them, I have one put back to use later myself for a 312-8 that has fuel tank under seat ...

I have not purchased another fuel pump yet but was recommended to get this electric one.. 

The bigger current issue is how do I get the old carburetor off? The bolts holding it on to chassis.. I can only loosen one so far then it’s stopped by hittingthe carb, the other bolt I can’t reach at all with either a wrench or socket ? Is there something i should remove differently first? 

Edited 1 hour ago by FLtractor

[sqrlgtr 1,263]

Yeah, that on side is hard to get to and you kinda have to pull carb away from block as you take it off.  Most of the time the carb will be stuck and you may have to peck/knock it loose from gasket/block. It may not seem like now, but they do get easier the more you take them off and on. if you have a new carb, DO NOT get rid of the old carb but rebuild it later or let someone else take it off your hands . 

[pfrederi 19,199]

Use a screw driver on the right side. Then loosen each side a bit at a time it will come off.  I had a 50% failure rate with the pump in your picture.