I Think This Group Might Be Bad For Me - Meet My New B100 Automatic

[squonk 44,918]

Slice the race length wise. Not quite all the way through. Heat/quench the race then rap the slice with a chisel. 

[BradKahler 199]

5 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

If you make up a plate with four holes that line up with your pulley holes and three equally spaced notches for a three jaw puller you could bolt it to the pulley with spacers and use a three jaw puller to remove the entire disc and bearing race as a unit. Frequent applications of penetrating oil in advance and a bit of heat while pulling will probably help.

 

I'll check, I might have some 1/4" plate that would fit that description.  Tomorrow is supposed to be the warmest day this week so whatever I do it will probably be tomorrow.

 

Thanks

[BradKahler 199]

3 minutes ago, squonk said:

Slice the race length wise. Not quite all the way through. Heat/quench the race then rap the slice with a chisel. 

 

I'm not sure what my smallest diameter cutting wheel I have is but I might be able to cut as much as 2/3 of the length before I would run into the disc.  

 

I've got three ideas to work with tomorrow.  

 

I'll let y'all know what I end up with.  Who knows, it might be a mixture of all three by the time I'm done.

 

Thanks!

[Retired Wrencher 6,178]

21 hours ago, BradKahler said:

 

No offense taken

 

You are 100% correct, it's so easy to get in over your head on projects.  My biggest problem is I seem to bounce around from project to project, which extends their timeline considerably at times.  But, I figure as long as I'm enjoying myself that's all that matters.  I look at it as being part of the journey, not the destination.

 

Thanks!

Thanks Brad. unfortunately my mind doesn’t work that way. I have to do one project at a time that way I don’t get lost in the shuffle, but everybody’s different. Enjoy every project that you do.

[Handy Don 15,263]

16 hours ago, BradKahler said:

So when the PTO wasn't engaged the spring would push the bell outwards towards the brake pad?  I'm still trying to make sense of all this stuff 

Is the black arrow pointing to 14-75?

Yes that is 14-75. Held in by cir-clips on either side of the thrust bearing.

If memory serves (from conversations since I’ve never seen one) the spring would push against the inner end of the 14-75 stub.

I think the spring would have become unnecessary when the bail-attached 14-75 stub became able to retract the bell housing. 

Edited December 9 by Handy Don

[BradKahler 199]

1 hour ago, Handy Don said:

Yes that is 14-75. Held in by cir-clips on either side of the thrust bearing.

If memory serves (from conversations since I’ve never seen one) the spring would push against the inner end of the 14-75 stub.

I think the spring would have become unnecessary when the bail-attached 14-75 stub became able to retract the bell housing. 

 

Thanks for verifying that.  I'll probably go ahead and remove the broken stud but I doubt that I'll do anything else about it.

[BradKahler 199]

After thinking about the three options for removing the bearing race I decided to first try 953 nut's suggestion first. 

 

I fabricated a metal plate using 3/8" x 4" x 4" plate and drilled a bunch of holes in it.  After looking through my bin of pullers I found a two armed puller that I could bolt directly to the plate.  Normally a two armed puller would not be a good application for pulling something like this but bolted to the plate kept it stabilized. 

 

It took maybe an hour to fab the plate and about 5 minutes to get the bearing race off.  It worked even better than I had hoped for.  The only thing I didn't anticipate was the main motor drive pulley is part of the clutch disc.  I thought they were separate, so when the drive pulley came off with the plate I was a little surprised.

 

Thanks for all the help!

 

 

 

[BradKahler 199]

Over the last week or so I've been working towards trying to start the engine.  The carburetor was cleaned in an ultrasonic cleaner and reassembled with a new kit.  I also performed the following: replaced all of the fuel lines, replace the tank petcock and rubber grommet, and added a fuel filter,  replaced the points and spark plug, and  changed the engine oil.  

 

Today I finally was able to try and start it up.  I immediately had issues with a lot of bad connections and dirty contacts that I worked through one at a time.  After a few choice words I was able to get the engine to turn over and checked for spark and it was good.  As a first step to see if it would fire I sprayed some starting fluid into the carburetor and after a bit of cranking it fired.  I kept doing this and it would stay running until the starter fluid ran out.  It seemed as if the carburetor wasn't doing anything.  So I pulled the inlet fuel line to the carburetor and cranked the engine over.  Fuel sort of bubbled out of the hose when I cranked it over, I was expecting it to spurt out.  I'm guessing the fuel pump isn't living up to expectations.  Am I correct in thinking there should be more of a spurt coming out of the hose when the engine is cranking over, instead of a little bubbling? 

 

 

[Handy Don 15,263]

7 minutes ago, BradKahler said:

stay running until the starter fluid ran out

Most of us strongly prefer to use a spray bottle with gasoline. Starter fluid isn’t the best for the engine.

 

7 minutes ago, BradKahler said:

Fuel sort of bubbled out of the hose...should be more of a spurt

Yep. A series of spurts, actually. 

Edited Saturday at 11:32 PM by Handy Don

[BradKahler 199]

1 minute ago, Handy Don said:

Most of us strongly prefer to use a spray bottle with gasoline. Starter fluid isn’t the best for the engine.

 

Yep

 

I don't like starting fluid either and to be honest I felt bad when I was doing it.  At the moment I don't have any spray bottles available, I guess it's time to order some more, and I'll get a pump on order and also a kit for the metal pump so I can rebuild it.  

 

Thanks

[BradKahler 199]

I took the pump off to see if I could figure out what might be wrong with it.  

 

After the pump was off I reconnected the indfeed hose, stroked the lever and almost got a squirt of gas in the face.  I stroked it several more times and each time there was a nice squirt. 

 

I can think of two possibilities but neither make much sense to me.   The lobe inside the engine is worn or there is wear inside the pump where the lever can't provide enough stroke. 

 

How long does it take for fuel to from the tank to the pump inlet?  The fuel line wraps around the bottom of the engine.  I didn't put gas in the tank until I was actually ready to try starting it.  Could that have been a factor in only getting bubbles when I was trying to start it?

 

I've got pump to block gaskets on order, so it will be a few days before I can try again.

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,854]

You can leave that broken screw in the crank if you replace the stud that pushes on the outer thrust bearing. Yours will have one retaining ring outside the bearing so the application force shoves the bearing in. Later models have a retaining ring on each side of the bearing so when the pto is released it pulls the bearing and clutch away from the clutch disc. All those inner pieces can be eliminated.

Notice the 2 grooves on this stud (Toro calls it a pto shaft) and the thrust bearing fits between them.

https://www.partstree.com/parts/toro-102872/

If you have a metal lathe cut the extra groove in the original stud.

 

You do not want to weld on the inner race unless you plan on cutting it off because the heat with shrink the race making it even tighter. We often weld the outer race of a bearing if it is in a counterbore. Let it cool and the race will fall out because the heat shrunk the bearing.

[Handy Don 15,263]

4 hours ago, BradKahler said:

After the pump was off I reconnected the indfeed hose, stroked the lever and almost got a squirt of gas in the face.  I stroked it several more times and each time there was a nice squirt. 

It is possible your test strokes are longer than what the lobe on the engine shaft provides. I’ve not experienced excess wear on the pump lobe or pump lever. Also possible is that the fuel line was allowing air to be sucked in at a not quite tight connection. 

 

4 hours ago, BradKahler said:

How long does it take for fuel to from the tank to the pump inlet?  The fuel line wraps around the bottom of the engine.  I didn't put gas in the tank until I was actually ready to try starting it.  Could that have been a factor in only getting bubbles when I was trying to start it?

A lot depends on the location of the tank. Above the carb, petcock open, no leaks? Almost no time at all. Tank below the carb and a long hose run? Seven or eight seconds wouldn’t surprise me but it varies a lot based on a bunch of factors. The “lag” is why a lot of members have gone to electric pumps or squeeze priming bulbs. 

[Bill D 2,449]

I made a mounting plate and converted my Kohlers over to impulse pumps.  If you do this, use OEM Kawasaki pumps only.  They are made by Mikuni in Japan.  Very high quality. 

[sqrlgtr 1,358]

2 hours ago, Bill D said:

I made a mounting plate and converted my Kohlers over to impulse pumps.  If you do this, use OEM Kawasaki pumps only.  They are made by Mikuni in Japan.  Very high quality. 

 

Just thinking out loud here, is there anyway diaphragm could fail and allow fuel in crankcase with this type fuel pump?

[pfrederi 19,290]

2 hours ago, sqrlgtr said:

 

Just thinking out loud here, is there anyway diaphragm could fail and allow fuel in crankcase with this type fuel pump?

  

 

Yes they can fail and feed gas to the crankcase...I assume that is why he recommends a high quality pump.  Myself I just go to electric and avoid any chance of gas in the crankcase

[Bill D 2,449]

4 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

  

 

Yes they can fail and feed gas to the crankcase...I assume that is why he recommends a high quality pump.  Myself I just go to electric and avoid any chance of gas in the crankcase

You are correct.   No Chinese pumps here.

[sqrlgtr 1,358]

19 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

  

 

Yes they can fail and feed gas to the crankcase...I assume that is why he recommends a high quality pump.  Myself I just go to electric and avoid any chance of gas in the crankcase

I have experienced the factory mechanical pump faliure first hand. I was just wondering about this particular pump if it would do same. 

[Handy Don 15,263]

3 hours ago, sqrlgtr said:

 

Just thinking out loud here, is there anyway diaphragm could fail and allow fuel in crankcase with this type fuel pump?

I agree on possible, but don’t recall any posting from anyone who’s experienced it. 

[Bill D 2,449]

1 hour ago, sqrlgtr said:

I have experienced the factory mechanical pump faliure first hand. I was just wondering about this particular pump if it would do same. 

It could happen.   Buying a quality pump minimizes the risk.

[BradKahler 199]

23 hours ago, gwest_ca said:

You can leave that broken screw in the crank if you replace the stud that pushes on the outer thrust bearing. Yours will have one retaining ring outside the bearing so the application force shoves the bearing in. Later models have a retaining ring on each side of the bearing so when the pto is released it pulls the bearing and clutch away from the clutch disc. All those inner pieces can be eliminated.

Notice the 2 grooves on this stud (Toro calls it a pto shaft) and the thrust bearing fits between them.

https://www.partstree.com/parts/toro-102872/

If you have a metal lathe cut the extra groove in the original stud.

 

You do not want to weld on the inner race unless you plan on cutting it off because the heat with shrink the race making it even tighter. We often weld the outer race of a bearing if it is in a counterbore. Let it cool and the race will fall out because the heat shrunk the bearing.

 

It took me a bit to figure out what you were referring to on the snap rings.  Your comment about the stud caused me to look closely at the end of the B80 crankshaft and I realized that it didn't have the stud in it.  I had assumed both the B80 and B100 being 1975 models would mean they were the same.  The first picture shows the B80 and it has the snap ring and no stud in the crankshaft.  The second picture showing the B100 doesn't have a snap ring inside the bell.  As far as cutting a snap ring groove, I do have a lathe and can do so. 

 

Thanks for the tip.  

[BradKahler 199]

20 hours ago, Handy Don said:

It is possible your test strokes are longer than what the lobe on the engine shaft provides. I’ve not experienced excess wear on the pump lobe or pump lever. Also possible is that the fuel line was allowing air to be sucked in at a not quite tight connection. 

 

Other than the gas tank and pump the fuel system is new and or refurbished.  

 

20 hours ago, Handy Don said:

A lot depends on the location of the tank. Above the carb, petcock open, no leaks? Almost no time at all. Tank below the carb and a long hose run? Seven or eight seconds wouldn’t surprise me but it varies a lot based on a bunch of factors. The “lag” is why a lot of members have gone to electric pumps or squeeze priming bulbs. 

 

Factory tank.  On this K241 the fuel line loops down below the engine shroud and then up to the pump.  When I first started up the B80, it didn't take long to prime, however the K181 hose passes behind the shroud backing plate, i.e. straight across and then loops around to the fuel pump.  

 

It will be a few days, possibly after Christmas, before I can try again.  Deliveries are running kinda slow this time of year....

 

[BradKahler 199]

11 hours ago, Bill D said:

I made a mounting plate and converted my Kohlers over to impulse pumps.  If you do this, use OEM Kawasaki pumps only.  They are made by Mikuni in Japan.  Very high quality. 

 

 

For the time being I plan on using the original style pumps, however if the engine lobe ends up being worn that plan will change rapidly!  

Edited 30 minutes ago by BradKahler