I Just Don't Understand

[8ntruck 7,877]

I drove through town after walking the dog and saw that no lead was $2.86 at the gas station.  That was about 1pm.

 

When I went back into town about 5pm, no lead at that same gas station is now $3.39!

 

That is a 53 cent increase or 18% increase that happened in 4 hours.

 

I just don't  understand!

 

Edit

Folks - i'm venting here.  Please don't take this thread into politics.  The lack of politics in Red Square one of the things I really enjoy.

Edited August 5 by 8ntruck

[kpinnc 14,712]

It jumped like that here around the week before July 4th. I almost expected that one... 

 

I haven't checked this week so far. Definitely curious myself. 

[ri702bill 9,533]

I see that locally where the are two Gas Station / Convenience Stores diagonally opposite on a busy street. When one either loweres or raises their advertised price, the other one follows along.... including sudden price hikes.

[ebinmaine 72,988]

Standard issue "market adjustment."

 

 

[Pullstart 67,042]

Just get a diesel, or run premium gasoline… then you’ll never get that drastic fall in prices before it goes back up 

[squonk 43,939]

Yesterday gas was $2.89 at the Byrne Dairy 2 miles from me. I went to the casino 6 miles up the road to have lunch with my HS buddies. There is another Byrne Dairy there along with 3 other gas stations. All 4 were at $3.44!  And these 4 stations usually have gas wars and are almost always cheaper than the station closest to me . 

[953 nut 60,348]

2 hours ago, ri702bill said:

I see that locally where the are two Gas Station / Convenience Stores diagonally opposite on a busy street. When one either loweres or raises their advertised price, the other one follows along.... including sudden price hikes.

When I was in High School I worked at a neighborhood gas station, there was another gas station down the road on the other side that closed on Sundays. Saturday evening just after closing time the other station would change the price on their sign lowering the price by two or three cents (gas was $ 0.25 +/- in 1962) and people driving by seeing our HIGHER price wouldn't fill up in anticipation of saving some money at the other station. Of course on Monday morning the sign would be changed back to the previous price. Being a neighborhood station it didn't take long for the locals to catch on to his tricks.

[Ed Kennell 42,170]

https://hbr.org/2012/09/how-to-find-out-what-customers-will-pay

[953 nut 60,348]

3 minutes ago, Ed Kennell said:

https://hbr.org/2012/09/how-to-find-out-what-customers-will-pay

Considering the tuition cost at Harvard I guess they applied their own theory, price it as high as customers are willing to pay.

[Ed Kennell 42,170]

We don't have a problem with fluctuating gas prices here in the PeeAaa.  Due to the $0.684 /gallon tax, the price is always high.

I do wonder why the price in our small town of Red Lion is always $0.30 higher than all the surrounding towns.

[JoeM 8,429]

Here there is definitely a difference between independent stations and chain stations. The prices fluctuate more with the independents and smaller chains. 

A while back a good friend owned his own gas station / repair shop  with no self serve pumps. He sold a lot of gas, people really don't like pumping gas especially the ladies.

Each load from the supplier was priced per the market and he had to have payment in hand. The day before delivery he would stick his tanks and place an order. 

I know he finally had to give up the gas sales because the cost of a pump attendant / pump maintenance left very little. He focused on the repair side of the business. 

The major chains rely on the convenient store sales that is why a sub costs 10$ at these places. Other then a occasional cup of coffee I just stick to buying fuel.

[8ntruck 7,877]

5 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

Standard issue "market adjustment."

 

 

Or, in other words - 'because we can'.

 

4 hours ago, Pullstart said:

Just get a diesel, or run premium gasoline… then you’ll never get that drastic fall in prices before it goes back up 

I don't think that Pacifica mini vans come in diesel versions in the US.  Might be able to find a grey market European model.....

[lynnmor 7,858]

1 hour ago, 8ntruck said:

Or, in other words - 'because we can'.

 

I don't think that Pacifica mini vans come in diesel versions in the US.  Might be able to find a grey market European model.....

That is a good subject, our brilliant leaders say they want fuel efficiency but they tax diesel fuel way more than gasoline.  So what is it brilliant leaders, do you speak with a forked tongue?

[Treepep 697]

 

 

I put premium in my daily driver.  Subaru Forester. Always around four buck.  I put Non E in my truck because it sits.  Always well over four bucks.  I try to keep it topped off so I dont have to pay for 27 gallons at once.

[wh500special 2,277]

2 hours ago, 8ntruck said:

Or, in other words - 'because we can'.

 

I don't think that Pacifica mini vans come in diesel versions in the US.  Might be able to find a grey market European model.....

No need for diesel. The Pacifica is offered as a hybrid.  You can even plug it in for cheaper cost of operation if you so desire. 
 

steve

[wh500special 2,277]

1 hour ago, lynnmor said:

That is a good subject, our brilliant leaders say they want fuel efficiency but they tax diesel fuel way more than gasoline.  So what is it brilliant leaders, do you speak with a forked tongue?

 

According to the Google machine, diesel is taxed at the federal level at 6 cents more per gallon than gasoline.  States vary, but here in MO they are both taxed at the same rate.   I didn’t find anything online for the county or municipality here. 
 

The pump prices of the two across the highway from me right now differ by 52 cents; diesel being more expensive.  So 11% of the difference is due to taxation.  Not quite noise level, but pretty low. 
 

I get no heartburn blaming my brilliant leaders for things, but there must be more to this than merely the taxation that you assert. 
 

Steve

[Handy Don 14,129]

I was delighted to be in “ethanol free” territory on my way home from the boondocks this weekend.

Filled up at $3.83 for 91 octane. No bargain, but fair. 

Normal 91 at the station I passed a few miles earlier had 91 at $4.52. Yikes!

Both were outlets of large chains in the area.

Yes, it is confusing.

Of note, most stations in my area store 87 and 93 and use a metering system in the pump to deliver “mid-grade” 91. The upstate store had only 87 and 91 (and diesel, separately)—engines requiring 93 were out of luck!

Edited August 6 by Handy Don

[lynnmor 7,858]

5 hours ago, wh500special said:

 

I get no heartburn blaming my brilliant leaders for things, but there must be more to this than merely the taxation that you assert. 
 

In PA the tax is $.985 per gallon for diesel.  I suppose the thinking was that diesel engines were used in large trucks and should be taxed more.  In recent years many countries use diesels in small cars for the efficiency and we go on making it a poor choice.

[8ntruck 7,877]

I remember diesel being cheaper than gas when I was a teenager.  I also noted that diesel seemed to quickly overtake gas prices about the time that the Oldsmobile diesel powered cars gained popularity.

[wh500special 2,277]

3 hours ago, lynnmor said:

In PA the tax is $.985 per gallon for diesel.  I suppose the thinking was that diesel engines were used in large trucks and should be taxed more.  In recent years many countries use diesels in small cars for the efficiency and we go on making it a poor choice.

The PA.gov website shows diesel is taxed at 74 cents and gas at 58.  It appears PA has among the highest fuel taxes in the nation; significantly higher than where I live and work. 
 

Diesel engines had several strikes against them for being popular in cars in the US.  One reason being that the engine itself costs more due to being stronger and heavier built than a gasoline engine.  Another would be the reduced horsepower and typically sluggish performance compared to a similar gas engine. To top it off, the emissions profile is comparatively tough to deal with which adds cost and complexity that’s harder to hide in the cost of a smaller vehicle.  Once the fuel got more expensive than regular gas, we also had to ask people to “do the math” on whether it made sense to use the heavier fuel…and that’s a tall ask.  
 

But I think the biggest culprit is perception.    1980’s GM in general - and Oldsmobile in particular - launched an underbaked converted gas engine that I feel cemented the reputation for slow, smoky, hard-starting engines that were trouble prone and expensive to repair…if you could find someone to repair them.  Other manufactures joined the party with their smoky slugs too. Soot-spewing heavy trucks didn’t help the image either and neither did the perceived scarcity of fuel stations. 
 

it was uphill from there.  Turbocharging helped keep some niche cars viable. Eventually there was some headway being made in the first fifteen years or so of the 2000’s.  Better engine control yielded better driving characteristics.  The new emissions equipment was getting rid of the soot and copious NOx emissions.  
 

Perceptions were getting steadily better. 
 

 That was until VW ruined it for everybody by willfully and deliberately deactivating the emissions systems in their “clean diesel” cars and SUVs when they were driving on the road.  They enabled the full suite of controls when the car was tested on a treadmill and in that moment they were squeaky clean, but on the road…whoa.  
 

When caught by curious researchers and regulators, VW then had the audacity to thumb their noses at the EPA and CARB and kept on cheating.  Not to be outdone, other manufacturers were also caught up in the farce by using similar software cheats.  Eventually the EPA threatened to stop their ability to sell any product in the US, so VW had no choice. 
 

The result of that episode of shameful behavior was effectively the death of diesel around western world.  
 

Perception revisited.  
 

Every one of those things were nails in the coffin for diesel cars in the US.  But another big - yet most subtle - nail has been the cheap historic cost of gasoline in the US.  
 

I don’t want to pay more than I do and we all complain about the cost of gas from time to time, but our collective actions tell another tale. When you look around at the vehicles we choose to buy it should be pretty clear that fuel prices are not a big concern for very many people.  If they were we’d have an entirely different mix of vehicles on the road and a fraction of the large 4x4 trucks and SUVs we all drive.  Certainly fewer large boats and RVs too. 
 

Europe and some other parts of the world  viewed the diesel passenger car more favorably.  Here, regulators focused on air quality.  There (Europe), the tax structure gave preference to diesel as its higher energy content and the engines’ better thermal efficiency reduced per-mile (per kilometer) CO2 production compared to gasoline.  

The lower cost of diesel fuel helped soften the blow for the expensive emissions systems that eventually made its way into those diesel cars.
 

Their focus was on CO2 for what should be obvious reasons.  There were other factors involved, but that was the overriding issue that made regulators more tolerant to conventional pollution and gave diesel the chance to thrive and gain acceptance. And a favorable perception.   
 

For the record, I am an enthusiastic diesel devotee.  Until it became widely known it was a gross polluter, I loved my VW TDI Passat.  That car easily got 50 mpg on a long trip where its 18 gallon tank could take me from St Louis, MO to Charlotte, NC without stopping.  I like to tinker with my diesel Deere 332, Cub Cadet 1512, Simplicity 7790, and Ford LGT-14D.  And I get great joy from firing up one of our little Hatz air cooled diesels I’m putting on equipment at work.  But I’ve reconciled myself to the fact that diesel passenger cars - in the US at least - are likely just a thing of the past. 

 

I think it is exceedingly unlikely that the diesel could ever make a comeback to the passenger vehicle market.  But that’s not the end of the world as there are more efficient and/or cheaper alternatives these days.  Each with its baggage, benefits, and perceptions. 
 

Steve

[ebinmaine 72,988]

4 hours ago, wh500special said:

 The new emissions equipment was getting rid of the soot and copious NOx emissions

 

4 hours ago, wh500special said:

heavy trucks

 

4 hours ago, wh500special said:

baggage, benefits, and perceptions. 

 

Well stated Steve.  👏 

 

As a heavy truck 🚚 driver who's been in the industry long enough to see and deal with the emissions curfuffle I'd like to point out that the DEF systems are at best, OK. On paper they work well. In some trucks, the vast majority?  they work fine....

But when a DEF system is faulty it is a rough screaming nightmare. There are thousands of horror stories about heavy trucks stranding and even financially draining their owners because of the emissions fiasco. 

Medium duty emissions hit the market in 2007. HD in 2012. 

I'm a Switch Seat driver. I have no dedicated machines at work.  Because of this I've driven at least 150 different trucks over the years.  

In the last 15 years at least 50 or more.  

ALL OF THEM. Yes every single one... has had an emissions issue at some point. 

I find that greatly disturbing to say the least. 

 

[lynnmor 7,858]

9 hours ago, wh500special said:

The PA.gov website shows diesel is taxed at 74 cents and gas at 58.  It appears PA has among the highest fuel taxes in the nation; significantly higher than where I live and work. 
 

You need to add the federal tax to get the real figure.

[wh500special 2,277]

On 8/6/2025 at 3:53 AM, ebinmaine said:

 

 

 

…

ALL OF THEM. Yes every single one... has had an emissions issue at some point. 

I find that greatly disturbing to say the least. 

 

Agreed about the disturbing part.  
 

I didn’t know the reliability of these systems was that bad, but I have read lots of reports of failures.   Our diesel Ford Transit van at work just got a new DPF a couple of weeks ago after the 400,000 mile original got plugged.  We learned our van was an outlier as most of them fail much, much sooner.  
 

I got to spec out the new Transit and barely even considered the diesel model.  Fuel economy is pretty close and the cheaper fuel and maintenance on gasoline put it over the top.  Plus, it’s way easier to get the gas V6 serviced anywhere along the way in our St. Louis-Fulton-Buffalo triangle when we have a breakdown and need to get it towed.   If the V6 blows at 200k and we need  new engine we’ll likely still be money ahead compared to the 5-cyl diesel that broke down several times in the old one. 
 

Exhaust treatment in a diesel is wildly more complicated than in a gas engine.  The huge amount of excess air (no throttle) and the soot are troublesome.  Gas engines are tuned to be somewhat wasteful, running more gas than can be burned in each cycle.  Diesels run hot and lean.  78% of each gulp of air the piston takes is nitrogen that’s eager to be oxidized up to NO2. With hardly any CO and unburned hydrocarbons to be reduced in the exhaust means there’s not much there to couple the Redox reactions needed to make a catalyst do its magic. So most engines must use a third party, urea, in the Diesel Exhaust Fluid to help the process along.   
 

That rolling chemistry set has a pretty narrow operating window.  Throw in the hot environment, moisture, temperature cycling, vibration, and generally hostile automotive/truck environment and it’s a miracle of modern engineering these things work as long as they do.  I suspect if the diesel infrastructure didn’t already exist for heavy trucks the industry wouldn’t have tolerated the cost and complexity as long as it has.
 

I don’t know where the they fuel them, but there must be something close to me as I see a lot of heavy trucks running on compressed natural gas.  The telltale

is the giant pressure saddle tanks and chunks of ice hanging off of them in cool, damp weather.  They must be powerful and torquey enough to get the job done.  
 

I’d bet if there were more gas stations along the highway that could accommodate an 18 wheeler at the regular unleaded pumps we’d see a natural transition take place.  Gasoline probably makes more sense in this application than we realize at this point. 
 

of course that would no doubt also affect gas prices.  
 

Steve

Edited August 7 by wh500special

[Ed Kennell 42,170]

On 8/5/2025 at 12:43 AM, 8ntruck said:

no lead was $2.86

Strange when E-10 and E-15 were first mandated it was and continues to be advertised as NO LEAD.    Was this fake advertising designed to make us all think  non ethanol gasoline contained lead and to promote the phony ethanol movement.    When in fact, lead in all gasoline was banned in 1996.    

 

[ebinmaine 72,988]

1 minute ago, Ed Kennell said:

Strange when E-10 and E-15 were first mandated it was and continues to be advertised as NO LEAD.    Was this fake advertising designed to make us all think  non ethanol gasoline contained lead and to promote the phony ethanol movement.    When in fact, lead in all gasoline was banned in 1996.    

 

 

 

I can't speak for other states but I believe in Massachusetts at least, Gasoline is required to state that it has no lead. Doesn't matter what other funny substances are in it.