1969 Raider 12 Electrical Confusion

[rmaynard 16,290]

My grandson Mason bought a 1969 Raider 12 (1-6241) at the show. The Raider is equipped with a K301 (47147C Ser. D038421 ) engine.

This engine has a battery ignition (coil, points, condenser). All printed references to the 1-6241 show it with a magneto ignition. I even have the original owners manual.

 

The wiring diagram is magneto only. The only reference to a points and condenser system in our manuals library is for early models with starter/generator. 

 

Unless someone has the correct wiring diagram, I guess we'll wing it.

[squonk 43,726]

Outside of a different switch and a 12volt with key on to the coil wire the rest should be  the same as you have. Or you can use the needed bits from this. Take out the clutch switch and ammeter

 

 

 

Edited June 26 by squonk

[pfrederi 18,633]

47147C Was originally a Breakerless Ignition per Kohler.. I have one it is breakerless.  I have a few Charger electros and have three different ignitions.  

[rmaynard 16,290]

This machine has no ammeter, and it had no starter solenoid. The ignition switch was a high amp one. The PO replaced the ignition switch with a current one and installed a solenoid.

 

7 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

47147C Was originally a Breakerless Ignition per Kohler.. I have one it is breakerless.  I have a few Charger electros and have three different ignitions.  

 

This engine shows no evidence of ever being a breakerless engine.

[squonk 43,726]

18 minutes ago, rmaynard said:

This machine has no ammeter, and it had no starter solenoid. The ignition switch was a high amp one. The PO replaced the ignition switch with a current one and installed a solenoid.

 

 

This engine shows no evidence of ever being a breakerless engine.

Pull the shroud and see if the 2 extra wires from the stator are there for the breakerless ign. That's the only way I know of to tell for sure, The points plunger hole would have had a plug you remove to convert to points

[rmaynard 16,290]

45 minutes ago, squonk said:

Pull the shroud and see if the 2 extra wires from the stator are there for the breakerless ign. That's the only way I know of to tell for sure, The points plunger hole would have had a plug you remove to convert to points

I'll check. The tractor is at my grandson's house. 

[rmaynard 16,290]

@squonk here is the image from the front of the owners manual. 

 

Look closely at the enlarged image. You will see that the 1-6241 has points. 

 

 

This just adds to my confusion. I'm not worried about it. I'll just take what's there and rewire it as though it's supposed to be a battery ignition. 

[953 nut 59,753]

Use the 103 990 ignition switch and this diagram and you should be fine.

[Achto 29,352]

I have a '68 Raider 12 with battery ignition and a Bendix starter. Weather it is the correct engine is unknown, but I believe it's original. I have also encountered '68 & '69 model's with a starter/gen and battery ignition. For some reason I think that the '68 & '69 Raider's used some left over/experiment  engines. 

 

Strange that they used a magneto ignition in '69 yet my C-141 and my C-145 both have battery ignition. 

Edited June 27 by Achto

[kpinnc 14,573]

59 minutes ago, Achto said:

Strange that they used a magneto ignition in '69 yet my C-141 and my C-145 both have battery ignition. 

 

There was a brief run of magneto ignition engines from Kohler very close to the same time. My 1971 Bronco has magneto (or an early equivalent), with an ignition module and no points. 

 

The pic below shows the module. One wire supplies 12v to the trigger, the other goes directly to the spark plug. The separate trigger module and magnet inside the flywheel provides spark timing. 

 

What I am unsure on is when Kohler started this. I know Wheel Horse didn't use them after 1972 so far as I have seen. I wonder if the manual diagram snuck by with the changes due to the expected "new" ignition? 

 

EDIT: this would not explain the manual. If memory serves, the module on the Bronco still requires 12V to work, so the starter switch would be like regular coil ignition. 

 

 

Edited June 27 by kpinnc

[pfrederi 18,633]

From Rehlko  47147 built for wheel horse

 

 

 

[kpinnc 14,573]

22 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

From Rehlko  47147 built for wheel horse

 

Exactly what is on my Bronco 14. 

 

These units don't exactly have a following, and many were swapped out for coil ignition over the years. The modules were much more expensive than coil ignition, and they could be converted without opening the engine up. The pushrod hole for the points is simply plugged on the block. Pull that, and coil ignition bolts right up. I'll bet Bob's engine was just converted because the module failed. I only know this because it is my plan should mine fail, and many have made this conversion. 

 

If there is an error in the manual, the engine pic is likely the culprit. 

 

The confusing part for me is the magneto tab on the key switch is typically for grounding the mag. But if you pull the wire from my module, the engine shuts down. 

 

I need to go look at mine with a meter. I have always thought that wire to the module had voltage on it. Too many machines to keep up with... 

 

 

Edited June 27 by kpinnc

[rmaynard 16,290]

The plot thickens...

[squonk 43,726]

I wouldn't go by the pic on the manual. My 76 C 160 isn't supposed to have a flip seat and hood ornament but it has them. And the pic on the manual has them also.

[rmaynard 16,290]

41 minutes ago, squonk said:

I wouldn't go by the pic on the manual. My 76 C 160 isn't supposed to have a flip seat and hood ornament but it has them. And the pic on the manual has them also.

Yeah, I've noticed that pics are many times from previous years. 

[ebinmaine 72,406]

17 minutes ago, rmaynard said:

Yeah, I've noticed that pics are many times from previous years. 

 

 

Parts too!

 

Hence the 1045 exists.....

 

And of course @squonk's anomaly tractor of 1975/76.  

 

[pfrederi 18,633]

11 hours ago, kpinnc said:

 

Exactly what is on my Bronco 14. 

 

These units don't exactly have a following, and many were swapped out for coil ignition over the years. The modules were much more expensive than coil ignition, and they could be converted without opening the engine up. The pushrod hole for the points is simply plugged on the block. Pull that, and coil ignition bolts right up. I'll bet Bob's engine was just converted because the module failed. I only know this because it is my plan should mine fail, and many have made this conversion. 

 

If there is an error in the manual, the engine pic is likely the culprit. 

 

The confusing part for me is the magneto tab on the key switch is typically for grounding the mag. But if you pull the wire from my module, the engine shuts down. 

 

I need to go look at mine with a meter. I have always thought that wire to the module had voltage on it. Too many machines to keep up with... 

 

 

 

 

You have the breakerless system.  There are two wires on the bottom of the triangular coil usually hooked together in one plug.  One goes to the trigger under the shroud the other goes to the ignition switch M terminal and is grounded to stop the engine.  breakerless system like Mag system will happily run with no battery.  NEVER apply any voltage to those wires or you will have expensive smoke.

[rmaynard 16,290]

12 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

 

 

You have the breakerless system.  There are two wires on the bottom of the triangular coil usually hooked together in one plug.  One goes to the trigger under the shroud the other goes to the ignition switch M terminal and is grounded to stop the engine.  breakerless system like Mag system will happily run with no battery.  NEVER apply any voltage to those wires or you will have expensive smoke.

Like I said, I have not inspected the engine closely, but it has a coil, points, and condenser. The ignition switch has been replaced. The seller said that there was no starter solenoid when he got it and the switch kept burning up, so he wired in a solenoid. I'm thinking that this might be an engine transplant, but the spec number and serial number are consistent with a 1969 Raider.

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,444]

Early 1968 Raider 12 models used battery ignition with points and condenser.

Late 1968 Raider 12 models used magneto ignition with points and condenser.

Tractor model number 1-6231 was used for both. The 3 in the model number + 5 = 8 = 1968.

[953 nut 59,753]

25 minutes ago, rmaynard said:

I'm thinking that this might be an engine transplant, but the spec number and serial number are consistent with a 1969 Raider.

           The engine Spec number tag is on the fan shroud which is held in place by a few 1/4-20  cap screws. Who knows what a pervious owner ma have swapped around?  Just go with what you know to be true now and don't be led astray by inconsistencies the occurred during the past five decades.

You have an engine with points, condenser and a coil which has a starter with a bendix drive and a solenoid. Wire it accordingly, don't be misled by irrelevant information.

[rmaynard 16,290]

22 minutes ago, gwest_ca said:

Early 1968 Raider 12 models used battery ignition with points and condenser.

Late 1968 Raider 12 models used magneto ignition with points and condenser.

Tractor model number 1-6231 was used for both. The 3 in the model number + 5 = 8 = 1968.

 

And the early 1-6231 was a starter/generator model.

There were apparently a lot of variations going on at that time.