Green Plastic Chunks in Oil - M12

[svt721 27]

Hey Group,

 

The last couple times I've checked the oil in my '87 312-8, I've found little chunks of green plastic on the dipstick.  I've scoured the internet and other than the breather filter I can't find any other green plastic component inside the engine that would leave chunks like this.  I got a new breather element (this one was in there for around 300 hours) and took the valve cover off.  The old breather element seemed thin compared to the new one (both genuine Kohler) but there was a ton of that green plastic inside the valve housing.  Have any of you seen anything like this before and am I right to think this was the result of the breather element disintegrating?  Attached are a few pictures.

 

Thanks!

Mike

 

 

[953 nut 58,996]

Only blue/green plastic I am aware of is the low oil switch.

 

[Ed Kennell 41,166]

Did someone use a liquid gasket material as a seal?

[wallfish 17,777]

Looks like too much green gasket sealer was used. Is it soft and rubberie?

[Fordiesel69 270]

I believe that is the float for the low oil level switch.  

[Fordiesel69 270]

It is the exact same color but I do not have a way to attach a photo I'm out of room thanks to the antique belt drive server they are using to host the site. 

[lynnmor 7,673]

Maybe this switch:

[Handy Don 13,581]

1 hour ago, Fordiesel69 said:

thanks to the antique belt drive server they are using to host the site.

I’ll respond with three questions:

1. Do you think its worth $20 to become a supporter and get tons more room to upload images?

2. Did you downsample your photos before uploading them--mine typically get reduced to about 10% of their original size. \

3. Are you familiar with the phrase “ ‘They’ is us”?

Edited May 10 by Handy Don

[kpinnc 14,143]

2 hours ago, Fordiesel69 said:

I believe that is the float for the low oil level switch.  

 

Every one of them I've seen is that color. 

[WHX?? 51,319]

Is the oil level switch wired up and working? 

Any body see them come apart before? 

 

[Sparky-(Admin) 22,684]

6 hours ago, WHX?? said:

Is the oil level switch wired up and working? 

Any body see them come apart before? 

 

This would be a first for me seeing an oil level thingy disintegrating 

[svt721 27]

953 nut - that’s the one component I never considered but I think you hit the nail on the head.  The oil switch hasn’t worked since I’ve had it (7 years) but I figured it had just failed electrically.  But it looks like the float must have broken off and has been rattling around inside the crankcase.  The color of the plastic is exactly the same.

 

I guess it makes sense being 38 years old, but I just hope it hasn’t done any major damage to the engine.  It’s been like that since the beginning of the season and it doesn’t run any different than it always has.

 

How hard is it to pull the engine off the oil pan to clean it out, or is this going to require complete disassembly?  I adjusted the valves yesterday and noticed there were tiny pieces of plastic in the adjuster screws in the lifters.

[953 nut 58,996]

26 minutes ago, svt721 said:

How hard is it to pull the engine off the oil pan to clean it out, or is this going to require complete disassembly?

That is a question only you can answer.  Removing the engine block from the oil pan is a rather straight forward operation, unhook a few belts, wires and cables and remove four bolts,  BINGO,  its out of there.  That is the easy part, deciding if any of those little plastic gremlins have gotten into places the will eventually cause a catastrophic failure is the hard question that only you can answer. The fact that they have migrated into the valve gallery leads me to think they are everywhere including the piston rings and the crankshaft journal.

      If it were my engine I would completely disassemble the engine, clean and inspect each part, have the cylinder bore measured and buy the appropriate rebuild kit.  

[svt721 27]

Having spent years building high performance small block Fords with my dad, you're 100% correct and that's been weighing on me since I found the first pieces of plastic.  It certainly does look like the stuff has gotten into everything.  The only problem is, thats my only machine to mow with.  Will have to figure out how to get around that.

 

Thanks very much for the help with this - im not sure I would have ever thought to look at the oil level sensor!

 

Mike

[953 nut 58,996]

If you weren't four hours away I would say come borrow one of mine. Guess this would be an opportune time to add another Wheel Horse to your stable.

Join the club.

[svt721 27]

Appreciate the offer!  Believe me, I'd love to get my hands on a 416 or 520 for that sweet Onan sound, but I already have a garage full of projects and a space deficit.  I've been half heartedly looking for someone with a Kohler M18 or M20 to do an engine swap (more reliable than the Onan's it seems), but haven't found anything yet.  Might have to see if I can borrow a friend's zero turn for a couple weeks.

[Fordiesel69 270]

If you can pull the engine block off the oil pan (and leave the pan bolted to the frame) as mentioned above, you can get this job done very quickly.  

 

I would make it a point to inspect and flush it asap as the gov gear is plastic and can be damaged.  To change the gov gear you have to pull the whole engine apart.  You do not want to do that.

 

Also, it is doubtful, but maybe possible, that any debris can snap off the oil dipper on the connecting rod.  I would imagine that soft plastic would give way first, but we cant be certain.  

 

Definatly worth the inspection if you can fit it into your schedule.  

[svt721 27]

That's my plan, already have a new pan gasket on order.  It turns out the entire float piece of the oil level sensor came off and has been rattling around in the crank case.  Picture attached is what the sensor looked like when I removed it yesterday.  That'll be replaced with a pipe plug!

 

I'm hoping the plastic hasn't gotten packed into the crank bearings but my plan is to pull the engine off the pan and try to flush everything out with brake clean.  I may pull the head and pop the piston out to make sure plastic isn't stuck in the rings, but that'll depend on initial inspection.

 

I can see 2 big chunks of the float in the pan but there's no way to get them out.  Tried flushing the pan out with some old 2 cycle mix a couple times but all the plastic shavings are stuck to the cast iron.  Hoping this is a relatively quick job, need to get back to mowing the end of the week!

[WHX?? 51,319]

21 hours ago, svt721 said:

already have a garage full of projects and a space deficit.

Hoping your not fishing for sympathy from us ... welcome to our world... 

I would just pull the pan, flush out what you can. Slap it back together and git to 

 

Just food for thought is there balance gears he should check or pull while he's in there fellas? 

[squonk 43,208]

 

Get yours today! 

[svt721 27]

1 hour ago, WHX?? said:

Hoping your not fishing for sympathy from us ... welcome to our world... 

I would just pull the pan, flush out what you can. Slap it back together and git to 

 

Just food for thought is there balance gears he should check or pull while he's in there fellas? 

 

Oh no, no sympathy, I do this to myself   From what I can tell from the engine model #, these M12s don't have the balance gears.

[svt721 27]

1 hour ago, squonk said:

 

If only it were that easy!

 

[WHX?? 51,319]

3 hours ago, squonk said:

Get yours today! 

 

You use that for at home DIY colonoscopies Squonky!?!? 

 

1 hour ago, svt721 said:

M12s don't have the balance gears.

Wasn't sure ... good deal. 

[pfrederi 18,520]

2 hours ago, svt721 said:

 

Oh no, no sympathy, I do this to myself   From what I can tell from the engine model #, these M12s don't have the balance gears.

 

 

Interesting difference in data  The Toro parts diagram for 471527 does not show balance gears....However the parts listing on the Kohler website does

 

 

[svt721 27]

The Carnage...

 

Paul - you're right, there are balance gears in there after all.  That bugs me because I absolutely hate removing something they put in there from the factory, but reading about them now I'm paranoid.  The bottom gear (closest to pan) has a small amount of wobble.  I've never noticed any noise or knocking and I suppose if I did I figured it was coming from the mower deck.  But I guess I'd be wise to pull them out for now.  Perhaps rebuild and reinstall in the future.

 

Here's what I found.  The main body of the float was laying in the pan, but the thing sides that attach to the sensor body are shredded.  The pieces are everywhere, in the side of the cam gear, I see pieces in the crank bearings, the hole in the bottom of the rod was full of it.  I'm going to pop the piston out to check the rings and then do my best to flush all this crap out of here.  My main concern is the crank bearings that the plastic will block oil splash to keep them lubricated.

 

Attached are pictures, let me know what you guys think.  How has this never happened to anyone else?!?

Edited May 12 by svt721